Aiva - Artificial Intelligence Composition: beta starting today

chocobitz825

Senior Member
I think this entire argument of infringement is so firmly based in human and creative ego that it’s laughable. If you have clients who come to you looking for your unique style, then this entire conversation is valid. Let’s be real though, much of the industry is a client handing you another piece of already established successful work, and saying “give us something like this, but don’t get us sued for infringement”.

We’ll already treading that line and what people are saying is, “it’s fine when humans do it because we assume there’s some natural creative process that differentiates is from the algorithm”. However to obtain those results clients want, we’re copying tone, parts of melody, intervals and progressions and trying to spit out something similar but different. We’re not much better than the machine. For now humans do it better than a machine, but to get usable results from tech like this, human touch is still the ultimate factor to smooth it out into a cohesive piece of work.
 

cola2410

Member
I was actually thinking about this in a similar way recently. If we ever get to a point where AI is doing everything, even creative works (with no human interaction) then we are lost.
When would we ever say "hey, I'm going to write a song for my wife...I better go consult the AI machine"
There is humanity in the process of creation itself.
If we ever avoid that process in its entirety (where AI performs all aspects of the creative process), then it would be a symptom that we are lost as a people, with no soul or purpose.
That's a very thoughtful observation actually. I highly recommend Her by Spike Jonze with Joaquin Phoenix where the ending says it all - a machine will eventually leave a human for another machine because we won't be interesting for them after some time. Their arts will be unlike ours so we can relax but won't feel superior to them anymore. Different race, different life, different planet (?).

During one of our regular bar gatherings we have discussed the problem of mimicking human behavior by an AI application (going back to Her). The issue of a human requiring another human to interact with is a simple task for an AI app that could be sold in billions. The other side is pretty scary although - if a machine mimicks human behavior to the state when a human can not distinguish it anymore than we may probably speak about "non/un-humans" appearing all over the place and substituting us not only in jobs but in human relations as well. Imagine a race with a capability to be not only human but something else as well.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
That's a very thoughtful observation actually. I highly recommend Her by Spike Jonze with Joaquin Phoenix where the ending says it all - a machine will eventually leave a human for another machine because we won't be interesting for them after some time. Their arts will be unlike ours so we can relax but won't feel superior to them anymore. Different race, different life, different planet (?).

During one of our regular bar gatherings we have discussed the problem of mimicking human behavior by an AI application (going back to Her). The issue of a human requiring another human to interact with is a simple task for an AI app that could be sold in billions. The other side is pretty scary although - if a machine mimicks human behavior to the state when a human can not distinguish it anymore than we may probably speak about "non/un-humans" appearing all over the place and substituting us not only in jobs but in human relations as well. Imagine a race with a capability to be not only human but something else as well.
I suppose whether this is to happen or not, my observation with people's fear around AI is that it will somehow be better at being human than us. Not in that its perfect, but rather that it will be as flawed, shallow, and indifferent to other life as we already are. Its lack of emotion is why AI will never be like us. Maybe one day it will have it down, but I suspect if it can handle emotional, it will lose its sense of logic. I don't know if AI need be the sign of the end of times for people.
 

Desire Inspires

To the stars through desire....
I think this could be cool. I am going to give it a try and see what benefits may come. Hopefully it will help me to cut down on the time it takes to get new ideas in a digital format.
 

Desire Inspires

To the stars through desire....
don't get your expectations up too high just yet. its got a way to go
Oh of course.

The thing about technology is that a great deal of it is terrible. We must remember that technology doesn’t create itself; it is created by people. So if people make bad technology, it will be deemed useless and get scrapped.

I am not worried about AI taking over music composing. I would be more worried about that technology being used for other nefarious things such as manipulating financial markets or starting wars.

But even then, people will always find a way to handle the situation. I don’t think we will encounter some post-apocalyptic scenario. People watch too many movies and think the world will be similar. I think AI will probably make the world more dull if anything else.
 

bosone

Member
just tried some preset and make some track. nice but honestly far from being "human"... in any case AIVA would be just perfect for making stock music or background track to be used in youtube videos or simple presentations.

but, if this is just the beginning, can we imagine how AIVA or related software will be in 10 years?
 

averystemmler

Active Member
I think this entire argument of infringement is so firmly based in human and creative ego that it’s laughable. If you have clients who come to you looking for your unique style, then this entire conversation is valid. Let’s be real though, much of the industry is a client handing you another piece of already established successful work, and saying “give us something like this, but don’t get us sued for infringement”.

We’ll already treading that line and what people are saying is, “it’s fine when humans do it because we assume there’s some natural creative process that differentiates is from the algorithm”. However to obtain those results clients want, we’re copying tone, parts of melody, intervals and progressions and trying to spit out something similar but different. We’re not much better than the machine. For now humans do it better than a machine, but to get usable results from tech like this, human touch is still the ultimate factor to smooth it out into a cohesive piece of work.
It's a tough subject to put into words, but I think the legal danger comes not because the machine"s creative process is different, but because the machine's creative process is understood. You can look at the machine, see the copyrighted input, and see the process by which it became an infringing output. The machine can't claim that it was expressing its mother's journey from the old country and had no knowledge of the plaintiff's work.

I'm not sure what happens if you put multiple works from different artists into the meat grinder. Machine creativity is a strange subject. I wonder if there's a precedent in another field.
 

Jean John

New Member
Hello. My name is Jean John and I am a New York based classical and jazz composer. I signed up for this forum solely because I have been in shock ever since I received an email from AIVA and was vigorously searching through internet to find if this very very serious matter is being discussed anywhere. Luckily I found you guys.

To say that I am personally terrified is an understatement. I have contacted many composing groups already and warned them to not share any information until many more regulations are being presented. Music is human and should stay human. Please do not share any information about your creative process with AIVA, believe me, you worked too hard to get where you are, sharing your creative process for artificial intelligence purposes is like shooting yourself not in the foot, but in your heart. This is the email I got:

I am ***** from AIVA, AI composition assistant. I recently came across your profile and was wondering how you come up with new ideas when creating music.

I am asking this because we are a team of composers and engineers that created AIVA, and we are currently looking for people to try AIVA for free and give us feedback to make it a useful creative assistant for composers like you. (etc.)
 

Jdiggity1

Senior Member
Moderator
To say that I am personally terrified is an understatement. I have contacted many composing groups already and warned them to not share any information until many more regulations are being presented. Music is human and should stay human. Please do not share any information about your creative process with AIVA, believe me, you worked too hard to get where you are, sharing your creative process for artificial intelligence purposes is like shooting yourself not in the foot, but in your heart.
If you watch the way Brad uses AIVA in this video: you see that he's using it as a tool to aid his composing process, in the same way that hundreds of professional composers have been using loop packs and construction kits for many years.
AIVA generated several musical ideas for him to work with, but ultimately it was Brad's musicality that pieced them together, making note changes and orchestration decisions along the way.
In practical terms, taking issue with AIVA is also taking issue with loops and construction kits.
 

Leon Portelance

Composer | Songwriter
Hello. My name is Jean John and I am a New York based classical and jazz composer. I signed up for this forum solely because I have been in shock ever since I received an email from AIVA and was vigorously searching through internet to find if this very very serious matter is being discussed anywhere. Luckily I found you guys.

To say that I am personally terrified is an understatement. I have contacted many composing groups already and warned them to not share any information until many more regulations are being presented. Music is human and should stay human. Please do not share any information about your creative process with AIVA, believe me, you worked too hard to get where you are, sharing your creative process for artificial intelligence purposes is like shooting yourself not in the foot, but in your heart. This is the email I got:

I am ***** from AIVA, AI composition assistant. I recently came across your profile and was wondering how you come up with new ideas when creating music.

I am asking this because we are a team of composers and engineers that created AIVA, and we are currently looking for people to try AIVA for free and give us feedback to make it a useful creative assistant for composers like you. (etc.)
No worries, everything I have heard composed by AI is garbage.
 

Heinigoldstein

Active Member
Will it bring input to a composer ? If you're in a rush, maybe, if it somewhen gets beyond the crap in this video. Sorry if this sounds too harsh, but it makes me angry listening to this.....music ?

To me the huge danger is, that it will lead to the point, where the stock music market will be even more flooded with trillions of ugly, tastless and boring tracks. And since it can be produced that fast and cheap, people, companies and who ever needs music will pay less and less for real music. But artists need to be paid too. But in the end, you won't stop this kind of AI I'm afraid. And actually yes, it started with loops and construction kits already. It's more collaging than composing very often. But I'm old fashioned,
 

VinRice

... i am a robot ...
Ach. The fear on display in this thread is really quite depressing. It's a tool, and not a very good one at the moment. Like all tools it is dependent on the user. If it makes it easier and quicker to make crap music, so what? That means it also makes it easier and quicker to make good music. In any profession workflows, tools, markets, expectations, fashions change all the time and its part of the job to keep up. If you can't do that, never mind AI, you're fucked anyway.
 

MartinH.

Senior Member
Let me quote Siraj Raval:

AI is going to eat every single industry, and change what it means to be human. It's all happening very very fast, either you understand it, or you don't. Which side do you want to be on? Same!
I have a little over 30 years till retirement. I estimate in 10 to 20 years we might see the first creative jobs get into serious trouble, maybe sooner maybe later, no one knows for sure. I started looking into deep learning and I want to have the skills to be able to find new employment in that field of work, if/when my current skillset is no longer in demand.

If I was 20 to 30 years older, I wouldn't care so much, but I'm afraid I might live long enough to see a time where many others will wish they had cared sooner.

I hope I'm wrong about this!
 

Heinigoldstein

Active Member
Ach. The fear on display in this thread is really quite depressing. It's a tool, and not a very good one at the moment. Like all tools it is dependent on the user. If it makes it easier and quicker to make crap music, so what? That means it also makes it easier and quicker to make good music. In any profession workflows, tools, markets, expectations, fashions change all the time and its part of the job to keep up. If you can't do that, never mind AI, you're fucked anyway.
Well, you're a robot anyway ;)
 

David Cuny

Still recovering from Black Friday.
You can look at the machine, see the copyrighted input, and see the process by which it became an infringing output.
The assumption here is that it becomes "infringing output" by virtue of using copyrighted input. Not all elements of the input are under copyright, and elements can be reassembled in ways that the output isn't recognizable.

Also, the process may be understood, but the actual details may be so complex that it's not possible to easily trace the mechanism by which the final output is assembled.

if I were a professional composer, what I would find more worrisome is the ability to apply pattern matching to existing works. This lets publishers to more easily discover "infringing" works, much like tech companies weaponized their patent portfolios. This is already happening to some degree on YouTube.

Imagine a world where you had to "prove" your composition was original enough to receive copyright by submitting it to publisher's databases. If your work were found infringing, you've be required to assign a proportional amount of your rights (and profits) to the copyright holder.

That seems to be the general direction we're heading in. :eek: