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Aiva - Artificial Intelligence Composition: beta starting today

JEPA

Senior Member
sorry for the fans of Aiva, but what i have heard is total sterile, with no taste and in some way with no musicality sense. I have worked with fractal algorithms and cellular automata and so on. These are only structures that follow rules, you have to input values. The end result depends on the structures in forehand (algorithms) and the input values. The Aiva videos i saw doesn't have a feeling, a human being can turn the composition in unexpected ways from sadness to happy, from slow mystery to fast action and having in consideration cultural aspects, genres, styles and instrumentation (classical, folk, electro, traditional ethnical, middle ages, renassaince, romantic, rock-pop elements, ritual).

Very sterile, cold and out of human feeling. In my past i put the algorithms at the service of the compositions generating musters or motives to work with and transform but not to compose a whole piece without human intervention, a robot or computer doesn't communicate with the external world, just works with input data. I don't think Aiva could score a Film succesfully... just saying
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
sorry for the fans of Aiva, but what i have heard is total sterile, with no taste and in some way with no musicality sense. I have worked with fractal algorithms and cellular automata and so on. These are only structures that follow rules, you have to input values. The end result depends on the structures in forehand (algorithms) and the input values. The Aiva videos i saw doesn't have a feeling, a human being can turn the composition in unexpected ways from sadness to happy, from slow mystery to fast action and having in consideration cultural aspects, genres, styles and instrumentation (classical, folk, electro, traditional ethnical, middle ages, renassaince, romantic, rock-pop elements, ritual).

Very sterile, cold and out of human feeling. In my past i put the algorithms at the service of the compositions generating musters or motives to work with and transform but not to compose a whole piece without human intervention, a robot or computer doesn't communicate with the external world, just works with input data. I don't think Aiva could score a Film succesfully... just saying
Agree 100%
 

Holden Sandman

New Member
that's like cheating no? Getting a computer to give you inspiration?...sounds like if this is what you need, then you should not be composing.
I don't consider it cheating. I draw inspiration from as many places and things as possible. Every additional source of inspiration is useful.

Successful musicians since the dawn of music have drawn inspiration from those who have come before them. Inspiration can be drawn from natural sounds, mechanical sounds, past music, poetry, visual art.... there is no end to the number of places you can draw inspiration.

sorry for the fans of Aiva, but what i have heard is total sterile, with no taste and in some way with no musicality sense.
I could say that about a number of human composers as well. As with all art, it's in the eyes or ears of the beholder.

I don't think Aiva could score a Film successfully... just saying
AIVA is still in beta. However Amper Music is now being used by professional composers to score all kinds of productions. You would be amazed at who is using it on what productions.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
AIVA is still in beta. However Amper Music is now being used by professional composers to score all kinds of productions. You would be amazed at who is using it on what productions.
This is like Autotune for singers who can't sing...so composers who can't compose, use this. No self respecting composer would ever resort to AI assistance. Composing is an art AND a talent...AI is neither.
 

JEPA

Senior Member
This is like Autotune for singers who can't sing...so composers who can't compose, use this. No self respecting composer would ever resort to AI assistance. Composing is an art AND a talent...AI is neither.
I love computers, algorithms and technology, but to score a film or to compose a piece you MUST have read a poem, a book, literature, have seen some other master pieces in the filmography (films), should have seen blockbusters, TV, should have had interacted (talk, interchange of ideas, political views) with intellectual people, philosophers, mathematicians, scientists (my father is a scientist), and ARTISTS to grow your own language. (edit: should have danced, should have make trips to other lands, etc. should have lived)

An algortithm doesn't interact with the external world... It can be used as AID like I've said in the previous post to generate ideas. You would have to adjust, correct, change things. I doubt strongly that Aiva could score a whole film successfully without the intellectual knowhow, knowledge and spontaneous human feeling of the eye and individual memories of each composer...
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
I love computers, algorithms and technology, but to score a film or to compose a piece you MUST have read a poem, a book, literature, have seen some other master pieces in the filmography (films), should have seen blockbusters, TV, should have had interacted (talk, interchange of ideas, political views) with intellectual people, philosophers, mathematicians, scientists (my father is a scientist), and ARTISTS to grow your own language. (edit: should have danced, should have make trips to other lands, etc. should have lived)

An algortithm doesn't interact with the external world... It can be used as AID like I've said in the previous post to generate ideas. You would have to adjust, correct, change things. I doubt strongly that Aiva could score a whole film successfully without the intellectual knowhow, knowledge and spontaneous human feeling of the eye and individual memories of each composer...
Agreed...AI is fine for the corporate video here and there or consider it "stock" music..even though stock music was made by a real person...it's still somewhat generic. Music is a living, breathing language...AI is not.
 

cola2410

Member
Beta is kind of up, I only have to wait 22 days for my version (or I must invite three friends on social media......I think this shows a lot about it.....), as I am 1200 or so in the list, it seems the interest (from whoever) is big (or it is a good marketing gag).
This number (a big one) is a kind of indication that Aiva is an AI engine using human inputs to make it better and the developers may already have some tool to feed the inputs into Aiva without human interaction. As everyone may probably know the use of Captcha in browsers and picking road signs, buses, bridges, etc actually helps Google-invented AI algorithms to become better in self-driven cars. Aiva developers use the same tactic - use humans' experience and inputs FOR FREE to make AI behave like a human and later CHARGE humans for it.
It's not an algorithm and it's still a baby now but this baby learns and learns fast, thanks to us.

For some who joined recently there is a lot in the thread already about that, thanks to all contributors.
 

rudi

Member
The phonograph will replace human musicians...
Radio will put musicians out of a job...
Films / TV will put musicians out of a job...
Synths put musicians out of a job...
Sequencers put musicians out of a job...
Drums machines will put musicians (and yes, drummers count as musicians) out of a job...
CDs will put musicians out of a job...
Sampling will put musicians out of a job...
Music libraries will put musicians out of a job...
The internet will put musicians out of a job...
AI will put musicians out of a job...

Do you see a bit of a pattern here?
Part of it is true of course, but part of it is a facet of changing technologies and demands.
Not many of us are still blacksmiths, or match makers (as in making matches!!!), of weavers, or...things change and new opportunities arise...

I remember an article in a UK computing magazine hailing the "end of programming"... it was a piece of software called "The Last One". It didn't... and it wasn't.
 

cola2410

Member
everything digital in the box is an algorithm... something with rules
No it is not, I'm working for an AI company and you are fundamentally wrong here probably because you are extrapolating your previous experiences with algorithms.
 
that's like cheating no? Getting a computer to give you inspiration?...sounds like if this is what you need, then you should not be composing.
That's a pretty harsh statement.... I'm curious how far you think this applies. Have you ever used any percussion loop libraries or MIDI performances in your work, that you yourself did not compose note by note? How about hybrid pulsing arps and such? Or played with some cool, complex patch that then inspired you to write something around it? Do you consider that cheating?

I'm of the mindset that not everyone excels at everything and if they can harness technology to fill in the gaps and create something beautiful and memorable, then I really don't see a problem with that. For example, I'm good at many things but writing melodies is where I often struggle. So I've built a system with some custom and off-the-shelf tools for helping me with this if I hit a wall.

Having said that (and I haven't really looked into this Aiva thing), I do agree that an AI solution which aims to completely remove the human from the creative process is not something that I would be interested in.
 

jaketanner

Senior Member
That's a pretty harsh statement.... I'm curious how far you think this applies. Have you ever used any percussion loop libraries or MIDI performances in your work, that you yourself did not compose note by note? How about hybrid pulsing arps and such? Or played with some cool, complex patch that then inspired you to write something around it? Do you consider that cheating?

I'm of the mindset that not everyone excels at everything and if they can harness technology to fill in the gaps and create something beautiful and memorable, then I really don't see a problem with that. For example, I'm good at many things but writing melodies is where I often struggle. So I've built a system with some custom and off-the-shelf tools for helping me with this if I hit a wall.

Having said that (and I haven't really looked into this Aiva thing), I do agree that an AI solution which aims to completely remove the human from the creative process is not something that I would be interested in.
I get your points...and yes I've used loops in the past, but only percussion or drum based...nothing like pre-fabed MIDI unless it was a drag and drop drum loop or something, and also, there are very little original chord patterns if even, so it's not really cheating...but you are talking about specific elements...nothing AI about that. From what I understand this whole thing to be, is that the AI spits out a composition for you. Using a loop is non melodic..I mean rappers do it, that's fine, it's part of the genre though, and if they lift a famous loop, they either pay royalties or give credit...but that's a whole different thing..LOL

Yes I've used pulses and arps too...very recently in fact, But I have the freedom to create the ARP how I hear it, but the way in which it's used and played is still by my hand. I am inspired by the "sound and rhythm", to create something...I am still physically playing in the parts, chord changes and deciding how long to hold it or not, and also altering the sound with filters or the built-in ADSR of the library. I'd hardly call this AI...sequencers (LFOs) have been around since the dawn of synthesizers.

I do not consider writing around a patch cheating, but if you are using the AI software to give you a melody that you are taking credit for....that might be questionable, since you are not the one who came up with it, if that makes sense.

This actually bring up an old software (not sure if still in production), called "Band-in-a-box". You input chords, and it gives you a whole arrangement to write a song to...OR you can tell it a style, and it will create one for you. I have considered this solely for the purpose of writing a song, NOT the melody or lyrics....and this was for a singer who couldn't really play an instrument. There are also softwares that will even help you write a novel or lyrics...is this cheating? Not sure...I mean if you take credit for writing something that an AI/computer software gave you, then yes...that's dishonest. Using software to generate some synonyms is acceptable.

But the point of this whole thing, for me, is that like you mentioned...no way AI will take over an actual thinking, feeling composer. I see the Aiva thing as you do.
 

Sarah De Carlo

New Member
I think that basically, it's the concept of thinking that artificial intelligence can do the job for you that is wrong. Not to mention the fact that the market requires that you are also a decent producer, given that most of the music is produced in the studio, with a computer (but surely for the nostalgic of the live production this is also poop).
But, hey ... at the end of the day, what matters is selling your music and making it appreciated by those who buy it and draw inspiration for their productions. If in general the style of music production you do not like, it is useless to blame those who have adapted and have done a job.
I am one of AIVA's first beta testers and I was able to communicate almost daily with those who are working on it, and I must say that the commitment they are putting into listening to requests and suggestions is truly remarkable.

Will I use AIVA in the future? I don't know, probably and only for inspiration.
It can be a great help for those who produce a lot and have many short-term deadlines.

I think AIVA can do the job for me? NO, ABSOLUTELY NOT. A
IVA can be an aid to inspiration, it can give you a base from which to start, I have never programmed pieces already 'done and finished' using AIVA platform, either because, as far as the current presets are concerned, it is a quite aseptic orchestral composition, and also because psychologically and for personal taste, I need to put my hands on what I compose / produce.

This is an example of production starting from an 'idea' given by AIVA: there were no percussions, the use of the Theremin (thanks Soundiron!) was absolutely not contemplated since it does not even exist as a tool in the presets ... ditto for all the effects and the synthesized background sounds (phobos - spitfire).
What did AIVA do for this piece? Little or nothing ... has given an input for what concerns progression and main melody (which I have modified and recreated anyway). This, I think, is the right approach to using this 'tool' ... because this is: a tool, not someone/something that will take your place if you are a composer/producer.
If instead you are only a producer and you have never written music, and this instrument will allow you to produce basic orchestrations, it does not matter ... as far as I'm concerned, I repeat, it's the customer who decides, so hats off if you can work in this way, I certainly won't decide whether you are better or worse than me.

 
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vgamer1982

New Member
It's still bizarre. The "search influence" feature is going to make someone wealthy...but not in the way they think, I suspect, and that person will probably end up owning the company...because that's surely the stuff of legal nightmares and a lawsuit waiting to happen. If you listen to the clearly John Williams style piece they advertised it with, let's say Lucasfilm/Disney decided to sue based on similarity...

It wouldn't even go to court for the simple reason that in discovery, they'd subpoena the data inputted into that feature...and boom. It was literally generated with those notes from the influence as part of the feature. That's an open and shut copyright infringement case right there. There's an interesting test case perhaps but if Pharrell and co can get hit for something that "sounds a bit like"....actually using the notes of the piece as a generative function, no matter what you do to them, is infringing copyright, plain and simple. So it's really just a case of who first uses in the making of something significant using something non-public domain, which most film music would be, and I can imagine a bunch of people pointing that feature at film scores since that's what they actually did with it to market it. I bet the agreement with Aiva that you sign (or agree to) says you indemnify them against any copyright claims....

Could be wrong and who knows, but it does seem to be a legal minefield.
 
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