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AI and the future of the 'Artist' vs the 'Creator' - TADay Talk Radio Podcast

mscp

Senior Member
This:
He needs no introduction. He doesn't really mention the music industry, but he does go on about the liberal arts...may be worth listening to him a bit. Just skip through the political part and you should be able to hear his insight on the future of jobs, AI, ...
 

Mike Fox

Never trust the living
But we are already losing connection to the 'elites' of music. Back when the music labels controlled the industry we put value in a smaller amount of artists, because they were all you had access to. They were able to shift the landscape because of a lack of options.

Slowly as time has progressed and we have access to ALL the music in the world, we are starting to move away from entire world shifts on quite the same scale. For example how many 'famous' artists are there these days who have seemingly huge and successful careers, that you just simple have never even heard of before.

Thats with technology being at the level it currently is. Yes we have loops and presets but you still need a degree of craft to turn that into music. When its 'sliders' or some easier UI element I cant think of yet, even your nan could write music, then all bets are off. The second someone hears something they like, they will copy it, and that (I think) will propagate on such scale and so rapidly that the credit of originality will be lost in the ocean of oversaturation. There will be no personal incentive or value in being original if AI can immediately imitate. (of course we are not discussing legal issues in this discussion because that would make it to unwieldy to discuss but I am aware this would also play a part)

You can't plan for the future by applying todays logic to it. 2020 looks little like 2010 and even less like 2000 or 1990. Given hindsight, would it have been prudent to be planning for 2020 with the tech of 2010? Now think what tech we will have in 2032. I mean we didn't even have iphones until 2007. Imagine planning for the iPhone world with the tech of the 90's 😂

imagine In 1997 saying to someone within the next 10 years your camera, photos, entire music library, the internet, your email, your calendar etc etc will all be available in your pocket without wires. It would be hard to see. So in discussion I think its usually more useful for forward planning to assume the technology will be more powerful and be more available sooner. Because previous trends put us right in an expontial technological advancement curve.

-DJ
Alright, dishes are done, got my brewsky, I'm ready to rock! :emoji_metal:

Yeah, there's way more popular artists today than there ever were, for sure. Most of them I've never heard of mainly because I'm just old. :laugh:

But going back to the average joe owning AI tech that creates music for them. My question is, why would so many average joe's suddenly be interested in becoming a musician? Would it be for followers? Supporters? Subscribers? For these average Joes to even pursue music, I'd imagine there would have to be some sort of incentive for them, so what is it? Because learning the art of music sure as hell ain't it, lol! If everyone is an AI musician, then composers are going to get way less recognition than they are getting now, so I think that might prevent the saturation from being sustainable.

At the end of the day, it's going to be the musician writing real music without the assistance of AI, because they connect with it, because they enjoy it, because it's a part of who they are. I've been playing guitar far most of my life, and no way in hell is AI going to replace that, even if it meant that music beyond my skill level could be produced. Pressing a button VS coming with a new riff? Yeah, no thanks!

Even though someone might be able to construct a symphony by holding down a button, you're still going to have musicians and composers who are doing things live and in the real world. People will want to hear the next Kurt Cobain pick up his acoustic guitar and sing for them in the same room. People will want that intimacy and that energy, and that sort of human connection, and people won't be able to create that by pressing a button.

Hell, it might even become a joke and looked down upon for people to "compose" music with AI in the future. "Wow! Look what that musician did, Mom! He pressed a button!"

It's those types of aspects that might heavily effect the saturation we speak of.
 

Mike Fox

Never trust the living
This only matters to the business of music, not the art of music. People can keep creating great music and be appreciated for it. you probably just won’t make much money from it.
This is exactly how I envision it always being...

...that is of course unless AI completely wipes us out, lol!
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
This is exactly how I envision it always being...

...that is of course unless AI completely wipes us out, lol!
I like to assume that AI will be so much better than us, that it won’t inherit our habit of “wiping” things and people out. 😝

as for AI music, I think most people won’t use generative music for selling, but rather for personal consumption and sharing. In my imagination music is generated automatically to match the user as a interactive soundtrack to your life. No doubt huge pop projects will still exist but those will likely be AI related as well. Where our skills may still be useful is in influencing AI and extensions that can help give a sound from an artist to add to your palette. I’m sure there are still places for us to work but AI and automation are meant to eliminate the grunt work. Our field of music has plenty of that, meaning the rest is about character and innovation.
 

Snarf

Active Member
so I wont type it all out.
You should have typed up a short summary since this is getting off-track already, lol. Please watch the first 15 minutes or so at least, people!

This is not another thread about whether AI will get to a point where it can reliably replace humans for 99% of artistic tasks (including music). That's an interesting discussion too but it's just a starting point assumption here.

DJ makes a distinction between 'Artists' and 'Creators':

'Artists' are those who specify in a particular creative process/craft, such as composing, painting, 3D modelling, etc.
'Creators' have passion for creating stuff in general. They make everything themselves according to their own vision, e.g. solo game developers who do the art, music, coding etc. (iirc the game Undertale was made this way).

For the sake of argument, DJ assumes there will be a future in which AI can reliably compose music (and any other craft) that is indistinguishable from that made by humans, or at least 'good enough' for the purposes of this 'Creator'. In this future, Creators will be able to get their vision from their head into the world without needing to hire specific collaborators. They can create movies, games, whatever creative endeavor they desire, more or less on their own.

The main questions DJ raises seem to be (and please correct me if I'm wrong @Daniel James):

1. On a practical level, what happens with the Artists/craftspeople in this future, where 95% of them are essentially obsolete?

2. More broadly, what happens to the concept of an 'Artist' in this future?

3. What happens to art & media in general in this future?

EDIT: I wasn't sure if I should mix myself in this discussion, but imo this is a much more interesting topic than the old question of whether AI can become advanced enough in the first place (or how in how much time).
 
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mscp

Senior Member
For the sake of argument, DJ assumes there will be a future in which AI can reliably compose music (and any other craft) that is indistinguishable from that made by humans, or at least 'good enough' for the purposes of this 'Creator'. In this future, Creators will be able to get their vision from their head into the world without needing to hire specific collaborators. They can create movies, games, whatever creative endeavor they desire, more or less on their own.
There's absolutely no direct way of even drawing far-fetched philosophical assumptions about it without contemplating about the ramifications of the 4th industrial revolution within the liberal arts...but that would involve derailing the thread a bit to go back to his original point.
 

chocobitz825

Senior Member
You should have typed up a short summary since this is getting off-track already, lol. Please watch the first 15 minutes or so at least before commenting people!

This is not another thread about whether AI will get to a point where it can reliably replace humans for 99% of artistic tasks (including music). That's an interesting discussion too but it's just a starting point assumption here.

DJ makes a distinction between 'Artists' and 'Creators':

'Artists' are those who specify in a particular creative process/craft, such as composing, painting, 3D modelling, etc.
'Creators' have passion for creating stuff in general. They make everything themselves according to their own vision, e.g. solo game developers who do the art, music, coding etc. (iirc the game Undertale was made this way).

For the sake of argument, DJ assumes there will be a future in which AI can reliably compose music (and any other craft) that is indistinguishable from that made by humans, or at least 'good enough' for the purposes of this 'Creator'. In this future, Creators will be able to get their vision from their head into the world without needing to hire specific collaborators. They can create movies, games, whatever creative endeavor they desire, more or less on their own.

The main questions DJ raises seem to be (and please correct me if I'm wrong @Daniel James):

1. On a practical level, what happens with the Artists/craftspeople in this future, where 95% of them are essentially obsolete?

2. More broadly, what happens to the concept of an 'Artist' in this future?

3. What happens to art & media in general in this future?

EDIT: I wasn't sure if I should mix myself in this discussion, but imo this is a much more interesting topic than the old question of whether AI can become advanced enough in the first place (or how in how much time).
Don’t we have this model already? What happens to digital visual media?

you’ve got the big productions on movies and tv, then you’ve got the minor creators who have a platform and spend hours creating for it like on YouTube…then you have tiktok. Bulk algorithmic creation and consumption. It provides plenty of templates, some people get unique with the tools, others mimic the works of others.

music will likely be the same. On the basic consumer level, music will become a social experience. It won’t rid us of artists, if anything it will create more (of various skills and levels.) those with the right circumstances will stand on top making lots of money. The rest will find some ways to be profitable but mostly will find their niche market and survive there. The rest will just enjoy the freedom of music as a shared experience.
 

SergeD

Senior Member
Well, let's the AI music spread the world, to the point that people get bored and come back to real organic music. Some years ago an AI player beat the best Chess players and then what? Nothing, chess players are still competing and nobody cares about Deep Blue and friends.

But it's a fact, composers will have to "compose" with this new trend for a while.
 

Soundbed

Music for TV
I look forward to watching the video.

I expect one day video editors for reality tv will be able to replace my tv cues within their video editing workstations. I assume they will choose the category of scene (e.g., dramedy), dial in a couple settings, and music will get generated that fits the “beats” of the dialog and edits (tempo, phrasing) and bumper endings/transitions into the next scene or stingout to commercial.

Eventually I assume our whole lives could be scored, like a reality show. Someone on future social media could make a sad face and we hear a sad chord. Happy face, happy chord. They can “play” music with their faces or the tone of their voices. A new kind of reality tv.

I’ve been adjusting to these possibilities over the last couple years and thinking through how to adapt.
 

b_elliott

A work in progress.
Disclaimer: I love DJ but still have not made it thru his video this despite two tries.

Since we are somewhat hip to AI, you might be interested in listening to Lex Fridman (AI out of MIT) interviewing Eric Weinstein. Deep into its 3 hours, Eric mentions he'd like to see the likes of Jimi Hendrix or Art Tatum brought to the AI neuro research world. Hendrix would "see/think" differently than the average AI researcher. That is a hopeful concept.

Now turning to a darker 1984-AI future: What if the bigger problem is that humanoid art is illegal outside of AI. Period. All Artists are illegal people.

LAW: Unless you listen to AI generated music you are a punk requiring punishment/correction. (A Clockwork Orange first riffed on that theme.)

The future's grandest AI mantra: "It Don't Mean a Thing If You Ain't Got That Code" (ie., AI algorithms approved by CCP and other detestables.)

Hopefully this doesn't get me banned. Just sayin'....
edit: fixed link and cued Weinstein to save your time
 
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darkogav

Active Member
So I guess what they are saying is AI will make everybody become like that wedding photographer, who also happens to be a videographer, and also can make the weeding invitations as well as make a website for your wedding. I mean, all you really need is a computer and a printer, right? And you are in business and on your way to the big times, to conquer the small business world. It's as simple as that.
 

MA-Simon

No title
So I guess what they are saying is AI will make everybody become like that wedding photographer, who also happens to be a videographer, and also can make the weeding invitations as well as make a website for your wedding. I mean, all you really need is a computer and a printer, right? And you are in business and on your way to the big times, to conquer the small business world. It's as simple as that.
You joke. But that is exactly what my studies were about. Communication designer. I had all of those courses + copy writing, illustration, music and 3D. Most places I work some combination of these skills are expected.
 

darkogav

Active Member
You joke. But that is exactly what my studies were about. Communication designer. I had all of those courses + copy writing, illustration, music and 3D. Most places I work some combination of these skills are expected.
You can also tell them you can make the horderves. Just go to Costco and buy some frozen ones and put them in the oven and take them with you on the day you go there with your video camera. No one will notice. :)
 
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