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A few further harpsichord vsti thoughts

sDg

New Member
Finding the perfect harpsichord VST is clearly an impossible task especially if you are wanting to use the instrument for a solo album. I have to say that this is not the case for pipe organ. Between Hauptwerk and Grandorgue that are truly stellar sample sets out there including the excellent Piotr Grabowski organs available for free. I can sit for hours playing one of those and forget it is a sample instrument. Linn Records used a Hauptwerk instrument on their recent Monteverdi Vespers recording and my own demo solo tracks prove that people are easily fooled!

Back to harpsichords. I've tried 'em all at this point barring Cinesamples, I think. This one is not an option for me because they failed to include both single manual 8 foot stops (in similar fashion to the VSL instrument). Such a strange choice!

The top choice for me is OT Berlin series with the Italian, in particular, being really nice to play. The problem with the French model is that there are a couple of out-of-tune notes and for some reason it does not sound quite as focused as the Italian. Listening back to my harpsichord CDs, I consider both the OT instruments "hollywood"-esque which is to be expected, I suppose, but it's certainly not a dealbreaker.

The Hauptwerk Ruckers from Sonus Paradisi is also really excellent. My struggles here are finding natural-sounding reverb solutions either algo or IR to make the instrument fit in a convincing space. Otherwise, the instrument is consistent with a lovely soundboard resonance. It has a very "present" treble but I assume that with the right reverb this could be tamed somewhat.

As an aside, I'm still trying to figure out the decisions made to mike the Mietke model in the way they did (the bass notes are squarely heard only in the left speaker!). Panning the signal really messes with the phase coherence. I guess the only way to save it is to listen back from a distance or physically record the output from the speakers to get more natural crossfeed. Also, the trills are just terrible-sounding on my digital piano (due to no decay time as you get by default in Kontakt?). If anyone has a solution for either of these issues, I'd love to hear it as the timbre that is presented is really top-notch.

The others, including free offerings, are discounted from consideration due to lack of aforementioned soundboard resonance. Further, Soniccouture had it's own out-of-the-box issues like mis-tunings, intrusive "tuned" release samples etc and, TBH, the Ruckers (the reason I bought it) is a little pinched/harsh in the treble. Pianoteq should be given an honorable mention for playability but, honestly, it just sounds fake (like Organteq currently does).

I'm also looking at clavichord options if I can't live with any of the harpsichords but so far none have convinced me. I've yet to buy the Wavelore one because with the very limited demo compass it is impossible to get an accurate impression of how it will sound with real pieces of music and reverb. Users' performances on YouTube are not convincing me at all despite good playing. The rest just sound totally awful. The pianoteq one is modelled on a Nazi Germany-era piano-frame monstrosity so hardly equates to the sounds heard on Christopher Hogwood's "Secret Bach" disc!

To summarize: help! If you know how to fix the serious issues present in Spitfire Devine please let me know. Likewise, if you have tips for placing the Hauptwerk Ruckers in a good natural and convincing space, do write back! Also, if you can explain the weird Miekte miking, trills, and how to fix/improve I would be very grateful!

I'm pretty much ready to record the Bach French Suites but struggling to move ahead when the instruments are not sounding as good as I'd like...
 
I was surprised to see an update to several of Soniccouture's products the other day, and spent most of Monday re-downloading my entire collection as most have now switched to Kontakt Player with licenses and quite a few potentially had updates or fixes.

The Theorbo and Harpsichord tracks definitely sounded different after re-tracking, but I only used them in one piece and its dense and hybrid (some synths going on) so is not the best place to judge the issues and whether they are fixed or not. I use the French with 8' lower and 8' + 4' upper (or do I have that backwards?).

I did solo it, but it's very light playing of background parts so I would probably have to tackle something more serious to determine what was done since the previous revision a year or so ago. This one seems to date from December 2019, and I remember an email blipping by, that I ignored at the time due to being busy. I didn't see a changelog per se.
 
...perfect and dry recorded - no out of tune notes...
Best would be, to use just little of an "algo" reverb like Breeze2 with it...
Beat
 
The problem with VSL is not the sound but the lack of a solo upper 8 register. I can't believe they didn't include it but I suppose for orchestral scoring it wasn't top of their priorities. For solo albums, it takes VSL (and Cineharpsichord) out of the running, unfortunately.
 
Have you looked at the VSCO2 harpsichords? They have at least 2 in Pro and there are maybe 5 harpsichords in the free VCSL.

In my recent VSCO2 Pro vs. VCSL thread, there is a link to a VCSL Kontakt series organized by bigcat.

Bach is the 2nd kind of classical music I found that I enjoyed back in my young Philistine days. Please continue your search to find the right sound.

Sam Gossner of Versilian might be willing to work with you to sample an appropriate instrument if the current choices don't meet your needs.

I utterly failed to get GrandOrgue to play sounds. I had been impressed by the many sample sets recorded by the Polish gentleman too.
 
Thanks for your response, @mekosmowski! I had already checked out VCSL and VSCO2 and unfortunately the instruments are not quite up to the standard required for solo recording (in major part due to only having limited number of registers). The good news (thanks for reminding me!) is that I have since found great peace with the following instruments: The Mietke and Ruckers from Sonus Paradisi and the Spitfire Devine library.

First the Sonus Paradisi models...I'm running them in Grandorgue (absolutely zero trill issues vs in Hauptwerk, surprisingly) and I have since been able to add some great reverb either via zita-rev1, Dragonfly or using IRs from here. They really are amazing libraries (great price, too). The authentic soundboard resonance is way ahead of every other harpsichord vsti, IMHO.

Second, Spitfire Devine. This is a tricky one because the library as sold is quite useless because of really abysmal implementation of attack-sustain-release (crossfading between three different samples!). This has since been verified by two other users so I know it is not just my particular install. Anyhow, I managed to fix it! Unfortunately, it is a not a fix I can easily (or legally) share given that I had decided to adapt the starts of the samples themselves in addition to changing the way Kontakt was triggering them. The altered instrument is a revelation and the Fleischer can now join the Sonus Paradisi models as another excellent option.

I'm still fond of the free Zell instrument for Grandorgue and those free Soni Musicae instruments. I'm thinking of porting them to SFZ so I can more easily extend the top and bottom of the instruments as necessary and run directly in a DAW. With some creative use of Dragonfly plate reverb, I can kinda recreate soundboard resonance before adding in the room. Maybe I'll git clone the VSCL instruments again and try the same technique...
 
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If it wasn't for solo work (film scoring, chamber sized ensemble), what would be your harpsichord of choice? given a tight (edu) budget.
I am leaning towards vsl because it's very inexpensive and sounds nice, but it's quite old. Does it still hold up?
Cinesamples would be -50% EDU discount, so quite affordable as well.
OT would be around 90,- EDU included.

I don't think I'd need the whole soniccouture suite, so for me it isn't quite worth the higher price.

Anything I am missing?
 
For non-solo work you have a few workable options. My top choice for that is definitely OT because it contains two full harpsichords (all the registers), soundboard resonance, multi microphone positions and sounds great out of the box. VSL and Cinesamples also sound excellent (though missing resonance) but do not give you the upper manual by itself. This was a personal deal-breaker. If that's not a big deal to you for film scoring then VSL would be excellent.

Before you spend any money, have you looked at the free options from Soni Musicae and the Zell (Casacota)? For film scoring with the instrument acting as continuo any of those would be perfectly good. The Soni Musicae and Zell offer every register and are tuned to 440/equal.
 
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Before you spend any money, have you looked at the free options from Soni Musicae and the Zell (Casacota)? For film scoring with the instrument acting as continuo any of those would be perfectly good. The Soni Musicae and Zell offer every register and are tuned to 440/equal.

I indeed went with the Blanchet 1720 from Soni Musicae for now. Sounds quite good to my ears! Thanks for pointing this out...
 
It's been a while but I'm revisiting this thread to say that my preference for solo harpsichord libraries has changed since I wrote the original post. The Soniccouture Conservatoire Flemish and French are now my top instruments coupled with a good algo reverb. I bought Conservatoire a while ago and they have since been updated with improved "intonation". The only thing lacking out of the box are key switches.

The OT Berlin instruments are still excellent, of course, but I was looking to get away from the "Hollywood" scoring stage sound and find something more natural along the lines of the Sonus Paradisi sets which had the potential to be great but were not viable due to weird panning (just the Meitke), poor trills (solved by porting to Grandorgue) and release samples that disappeared if the notes were held too long.

Beyond these, the modded Spitfire (heavily edited samples and ported to Sfz format) is brilliant but probably a no-go for people wanting something authentic out of the box. The Premier Sound Factory Italian has a lovely sound and I much prefer it to the limited Xperimenta with only one real sampled 8'.

VSL and Cineharpsichord remain no-go because of the lack of separate upper 8' sampling. I was hopeful that the new Synchronized version would be complete but, alas, no. Pianoteq instruments are, well, pretty rubbish compared to samples. Very playable, yes, but IMHO anyone who says they sound like the real thing might need their ears checked ;). Having said that, I do enjoy some of their pianos.
 
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Have you ever looked into Realsample's harpsichord libraries? They have quite a few choices.
Your insights / opinions / comments about them would interesting to hear.
https://www.realsamples.de/en_GB

There's even several harpsichord / clavichord options to be found within UVI's Key Acoustic Suite and UVI Orchestral Suite - although they are more budget friendly all-in-one packages, nowhere near the same level of deep multi-sampling and multiple mic perspectives found in those dedicated harpsichord libraries you already mentioned from VSL / Orchestral Tools / Spitfire / Cinesamples, Soniccouture, etc.
 
I found my favorite harpsichord recently. The Real Samples Austrian. Cine Harpshicord is very nice too. Something about the Austrian though ... Its all sound and no frills UI - but honestly that keeps it nice and clean. It has seperate 4 and 8 + combo ... equal temp or Valotti ... A 440 and period tuning. A true delight.
 
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Have you ever looked into Realsample's harpsichord libraries? They have quite a few choices.
Your insights / opinions / comments about them would interesting to hear.
https://www.realsamples.de/en_GB

There's even several harpsichord / clavichord options to be found within UVI's Key Acoustic Suite and UVI Orchestral Suite - although they are more budget friendly all-in-one packages, nowhere near the same level of deep multi-sampling and multiple mic perspectives found in those dedicated harpsichord libraries you already mentioned from VSL / Orchestral Tools / Spitfire / Cinesamples, Soniccouture, etc.
I do own various RealSamples harpsichords but have found the sampling and editing quite poor with inconsistent volume across keys. When you hear an acoustic version of the exact same historical instrument you wonder how it could sound so wildly different. There's a Bob van Asperen French Suites recording on the real 1738 Christian Vater (the exact same one sampled by Realsamples) and the difference is ridiculous. Forget the onsets or releases, the whole tone is completely different.

Compare...



to https://tinyurl.com/4nn5uc9e...the sampled one takes on almost a fortepiano timbre...

The Realsamples ones used to be all I had and I got by but IMHO the free Soni Musicae instruments are better. I know, I know, I sound really picky but I don't ever feel this way about Hauptwerck/Grandorgue pipe organ sets.

As for clavichords, the UVI one sounds like it is electrified :) I just bought the Soniccouture "King of Sweden" this morning and I'm really impressed. The only shame is that they didn't sample an unfretted instrument.
 
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Also check out the following which is a real life Michael Johnson's Ruckers copy:



I can get something very close in tone in Soniccouture Conservatoire (which uses a Johnson Ruckers) by playing with some of the dials and adding an appropriate reverb...Same goes for the Spitfire (heavily modded) which is sampled from this beauty:

 
I don't yet own any of the Realsamples instruments myself, but I thought their English Spinet II sounded lovely in the demos.
What's weird is that almost all the top end of the sound in this Spinet and the harpsichords is missing. Maybe it is part of the noise reduction or something? They all sound like they are under water...

This is a real English spinet sound :



Again, aside from the beautiful plectra noises and associated onset, hear the lovely higher frequencies that seem to be missing in the samples.
 
This Thread has me thinking Spinets. Forgive the less than perfect playing. Can we lock into great tone? Are we on our way?


English Spinet Default 440

View attachment Spinet Demo - Sonata 1 - English Spinet 440.mp3

English Spinet Default 440 FX

View attachment Spinet Demo - Sonata 1 - English Spinet 440 FX.mp3

English Spinet Default 410 FX

View attachment Spinet Demo - Sonata 1 - English Spinet FX.mp3

Soundiron Bentside Default

View attachment Spinet Demo - Sonata 1 - Benside Spinet.mp3

Soundiron Bentside FX

View attachment Spinet Demo - Sonata 1 - Benside Spinet FX.mp3
 
My favourite is probably the English Spinet Default 440 FX in terms of sounding like it is in a room. But, there's no getting away from the awful original sampling. I much prefer the Soni Musicae Italian spinet:



The Soundiron samples are absolutely terrible (no offense!). It barely rises above general MIDI quality.
 
My favourite is probably the English Spinet Default 440 FX in terms of sounding like it is in a room. But, there's no getting away from the awful original sampling. I much prefer the Soni Musicae Italian spinet:



The Soundiron samples are absolutely terrible (no offense!). It barely rises above general MIDI quality.

Yeah I wonder what they were thinking with that one certainly there's a lot of sound design within the engine which is nice but how is it even possible that a spinet can sound like that like you could like literally put any microphone by one and it would sound better. New recordings I really don't get it. I think I've got a uvi one I can take out later. I will definitely download those freebies though
 
The UVI one is a bit like their clavichord: metallic and sounds like it was amplified. I'm really not sure what they were thinking.
 
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