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A couple of questions for Logic users

musicalweather

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I'm new to Logic (but not using DAWs) and have a couple of questions:
  1. When I load a multi-plugin like Kontakt or Omnisphere in Logic and play one instrument on one channel on my keyboard, all the channels for that plugin light up in the mixer window, and in the tracks window. Is it really not possible to see the activities of individual channels in Logic's default settings? I found a nifty workaround here, though I don't think I'd be willing to use it for projects with high track counts.
  2. For those using Logic and Vienna Ensemble Pro, which method are you using to set that up? It seems there are a few methods:
  • use VE Pro's Event Plugin. I find that to be a no-go since it doesn't allow for off-line bouncing.
I'm a long-time DP user, and recently bought Logic to help a student of mine who is using it. Certain things about Logic are appealing: the great stock plugins, articulation management, certain commands and processes (like looping) that seem easier and more intuitive than DP. But these two issues really seem like deal-breakers to me. It really bugs me that the meters of individual channels on a multi-instrument act cannot act independently. This just seems ridiculous. And whatever method I would choose to use Logic and VE Pro seems clunky or downright a PITA.

Most of my projects involve fairly high track counts (100-200) and two slave machines on VE Pro. So it's important that my DAW work well with VE Pro. It's been a breeze to have multiple ports on one instance of VE Pro using it as MAS plugin.

The one thing I miss in DP is articulation management. But it looks like @OLB here on VI Control can solve that problem.

Would be very interested to hear your thoughts about this! Thanks!
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
I do not use one VEP instance per instrument, you will find here that some people like that way and some people don't, in my view there is no clear winner there are pros and cons both ways. The single instance per instrument is more simple in terms of LPX setup, but results in many VEP instances. Take your pick.

I use Multi's in LPX and I use the environment to facilitate multiple midi ports per instance also sometimes in order to keep the number of VEP instances down to half a dozen or so...

Note that the Multiport environment template that was provided by VSL and also the tutorial described in the video you posted....has bugs in it. This is because the environment itself has some bugs related to NoteOff that the templates from VSL did not account for. Also the VSL templates did not account for the fact that when you hit STOP on the transport, LPX sends ALL NOTES OFF to all channels, but if you're using the multiport macro, then all ports other then port 0 won't get that ALL NOTES OFF; and you can end up with hanging notes.

I redid the the multiport macro to get around the bugs and you can find it here, along with some other non-multi-port templates for VEP which you might find useful:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085

If you want to learn a bit more about LPX multi's and pros and cons about different approaches, I have a long winded post about that here:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132635&hilit=multi+timbral&start=40#p697195

Again, there is no one best way, a lot of it depends on how you like to work.
 

Nick Batzdorf

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You have to create a multitimbral instrument so that each track is on a separate MIDI channel.

If you don't need 16 channels ("parts"), create fewer of them.
 

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musicalweather

musicalweather

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You have to create a multitimbral instrument so that each track is on a separate MIDI channel.

If you don't need 16 channels ("parts"), create fewer of them.

Thanks, Nick. I've done exactly this. Still, when I play on one MIDI instrument (say, the clarinet in Kontakt), all the channels faders for the Kontakt instrument light up. Likewise, when I move the volume fader (or press the solo or mute button) on one Kontakt channel, all the channels of that Kontakt instrument are affected.
 

Dewdman42

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Yep, that is one of the disadvantages of that particular multi-timbral mode. It sets things up in such a way that the fader you see on the tracker header is for the entire instrument (audio), not each midi channel..and also the mute and solo buttons on the track header are global for the entire instrument.

If you want to have individual track control over mute and solo, I recommend you learn about environment multi-objects, which do provide per channel control over the actual midi, rather then the audio
 
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musicalweather

musicalweather

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Yep, that is one of the disadvantages of that particular multi-timbral mode. It sets things up in such a way that the fader you see on the tracker header is for the entire instrument (audio), not each midi channel..and also the mute and solo buttons on the track header are global for the entire instrument.

If you want to have individual track control over mute and solo, I recommend you learn about environment multi-objects, which do provide per channel control over the actual midi, rather then the audio
Thanks for the clarification, Dewdman42. Is using environment multi-objects the only way to get per-channel control over midi? I followed these instructions for setting up VE Pro and Logic (using Environment multi objects). Ugh, very daunting, and something I'm not sure I could all the time.

I guess I'm trying to see if Logic is feasible as a main DAW for me, but stuff like this makes me crazy.
 

Garry

Senior Member
In your original post, your 'question 1' was about Logic, without VEP. In that scenario, is there a specific reason you want to use multi-timbral Kontakt instances? Why not just have each instrument on a separate track, with it's own Kontakt instance: then you have control over each individual channel, and if you want to play them together as a multi, you just arm each track. If you do want to combine them, you can also set up groups, and control which parameters respond at the group level, and which are independent.
 

gsilbers

Part of Pulsesetter-Sounds.com
Thanks, Nick. I've done exactly this. Still, when I play on one MIDI instrument (say, the clarinet in Kontakt), all the channels faders for the Kontakt instrument light up. Likewise, when I move the volume fader (or press the solo or mute button) on one Kontakt channel, all the channels of that Kontakt instrument are affected.

if you go to the mixer view and press the + sign on the multi timbral instrument, logic will create aux chanels. those will light up depending on the instrument channel you play. but not in the main view.


as for VEP, i do 16 at a time. i load 16 instruments and they all go to one stereo channel. so i try to do stems. like i have all 1st violins in there. or all horns etc. then i add all of those strings onto one track folder /track stack and you can draw in an empty region and bounce stems easily. i also do a lot of bounce in place sincei like working with audio so its useful for that.

the VEP vienna environment going around is a bit cumbersome imo. its doing the old skool way of having a sampler with many midi channels going to it and those go to different stems. apple prefers you have 1 instance per instrument and do the folder or aux routing. but if your template is huge then it bogs down stuff. there is instrument library as well so you can add specific instrumentsa then you need them. different ways of doing stuff. i do the one mentioned above.
 

Dewdman42

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Thanks for the clarification, Dewdman42. Is using environment multi-objects the only way to get per-channel control over midi?

well from the track header...yes. In terms of faders, mute and solo buttons on the midi, yes.

Go read the post I quoted earlier about multi-timbral modes and study up for a while. There are 3 primary ways to create multi-timbral instrument setups in LogicPro, they each have pros and cons, no clear winner. Two of the ways will give you fader/mute/solo control from the track header...but one way does it via midi and the other way does it via audio aux channels. There are other pros and cons of each approach.... and frankly they each have at least one con that is annoying to have to deal with. It is what it is. Anyway, that maybe will give you some ideas to go learn more about and try some things.

I also provided a link to the multi-port macro templates I made, and some of them don't use the multi-port macro, but they are still useful templates that use the enviornment approach to give you midi control over fader/mute/solo.


I followed these instructions for setting up VE Pro and Logic (using Environment multi objects). Ugh, very daunting, and something I'm not sure I could all the time.
I watched a few minutes of that video and I agree it was way too technical and very educational if you have the time to watch it and learn you will learn some things, but it generally doesn't need to be quite as hard as he was making it. Also that guy's environment setup will not work completely in multi-port mode due to the environment bugs I mentioned...so...

I guess I'm trying to see if Logic is feasible as a main DAW for me, but stuff like this makes me crazy.

Logic is very powerful and cool along with the other DAW's, they all have pros and cons. There are numerous people on this forum using it and loving it. If you want to try, you can love it too, but it will take time to learn how it works and find the best workflow, that is the simple truth. Also, you will find so many different opinions on here and other places about what the best workflow is, and ultimately you will just have to figure that out yourself.
 

Dewdman42

Senior Member
if you go to the mixer view and press the + sign on the multi timbral instrument, logic will create aux chanels. those will light up depending on the instrument channel you play. but not in the main view.

for the sake of the OP, let me just clarify this. The + button he is talking about is on the actual instrument channel in the mixer, not the track header you asked about. When have a multi-timbral instrument, if it is configured for multi-out audio then that + button will show up on the instrument channel and clicking on it will add AUX channels to the mixer for each of those additional audio feeds back from the instrument. You can certainly adjust the audio fader/mute/solo on those mixer channels and they will work per sound that is coming back.

However the track header fader/mute/solo for all the multi-timbral tracks using that setup will remain tied to just the main stereo out of that instrument.

There is another approach, which is not handled by the new tracks wizard, which is that you can create an instrument track. Then use the + button to add all the extra AUX channels to support multi-out audio. Then you can create tracks associated with those aux channels and you can record midi to those tracks and then the track header fader/mute/solo will correspond to the specific audio channels...presumably they are mapped 1:1 to the actual midi instrument tracks, but that is not a given, it will depend on how you set things up. There are pros and cons of that setup too.
 
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musicalweather

musicalweather

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There is another approach, which is not handled by the new tracks wizard, which is that you can create an instrument track. Then use the + button to add all the extra AUX channels to support multi-out audio. Then you can create tracks associated with those aux channels and you can record midi to those tracks and then the track header fader/mute/solo will correspond to the specific audio channels...presumably they are mapped 1:1 to the actual midi instrument tracks, but that is not a given, it will depend on how you set things up. There are pros and cons of that setup too.

This is the workaround that I mentioned in my initial post (I watched this video on it).
 

Dewdman42

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I don't have time to watch all those videos sorry...so if I repeated something said in there, forgive me.

There are pros and cons of the aux track solution, so go read the comparison write up I did. For one thing, there is no track delay available on those tracks...I can't remember what else right now.

People seem to dis the environment approach and call it old school and complicated, bla bla, bla, but personally I have found that solution to be the most powerful and flexible. Once you setup a template, it will not be that difficult to setup. here's the thing, ALL the solutions are using the environment in some way, its fundamentally how Logic works. Its just that when you use the new tracks wizard, it sets up the environment for you, a certain way.

If you use the AUX track approach, its not as easy as using the new tracks wizard, but you still arrive to a different certain configuration, including underlying environment objects, without actually having to go into the environment and creating them, they are created for you as you use the GUI of logic to create the AUX channels and AUX tracks, etc.. but a certain way that is a bit different the way done by the new tracks wizard.

If you use the full environment approach, then you have to set it all up yourself,, but you have a lot of flexibility that way and can do some interesting things you can't do the other way...and and top of it all, the track header becomes a true midi track header that effects CC7 for the midi channel rather then effecting the mixer channel faders.
 
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musicalweather

musicalweather

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I redid the the multiport macro to get around the bugs and you can find it here, along with some other non-multi-port templates for VEP which you might find useful:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=137085

If you want to learn a bit more about LPX multi's and pros and cons about different approaches, I have a long winded post about that here:

https://www.logicprohelp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=132635&hilit=multi+timbral&start=40#p697195

Thanks again, D! I initially didn't see this post.

You're right, I need to invest some substantial time in understanding Logic. I will read through your linked discussions, and probably will purchase a guide on LPX (don't like the fact that the manual can't be printed).

I don't have time to watch all those videos sorry.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought you should view the video -- just that I was aware of this technique. Anyway, really appreciate your input here and will read through all that you've suggested. Thanks again.
 
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musicalweather

musicalweather

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Off the topic, yes, gratuitous videos drive me up the wall.

I went to elementary school and learned to read. It's about 20X faster to skim a page for what you need than to watch someone prattling on and on in a video!
I agree, it's often quicker to read about something than watch a video on it. In this case, though, it's actually more efficient to watch the series of steps that people take to set something up than to read detailed instructions on it.
 

Nick Batzdorf

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To do what Dewdman says, be sure to create a *multi-output* Kontakt and assign each instrument in it to a separate output pair.

I meant to circle where you do that on the screen shots, but forgot before posting. The output assignment is in the upper left of the instrument, right above where you assign it to a MIDI channel.
 

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Nick Batzdorf

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Then click on the + in the mixer to create an aux for the outputs of the instrument responding to the second MIDI channel:
 

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