76 dynamic layers --meaningfully possible?
- Thread starter Erick - BVA
- Start date
Maxime Luft
Senior Member
I guess it's not the only virtual piano featuring such a great number of dynamic layers.
Nonetheless, I think the tone & playability of a sample library are much more important to consider.
They probably used one of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disklavier
"The typical Disklavier is a real acoustic piano outfitted with electronic sensors for recording and electromechanical solenoids for player piano-style playback. Sensors record the movements of the keys, hammers, and pedals during a performance, and the system saves the performance data as a Standard MIDI File (SMF). On playback, the solenoids move the keys and pedals and thus reproduce the original performance."
Nonetheless, I think the tone & playability of a sample library are much more important to consider.
They probably used one of these:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disklavier
"The typical Disklavier is a real acoustic piano outfitted with electronic sensors for recording and electromechanical solenoids for player piano-style playback. Sensors record the movements of the keys, hammers, and pedals during a performance, and the system saves the performance data as a Standard MIDI File (SMF). On playback, the solenoids move the keys and pedals and thus reproduce the original performance."
DSmolken
Senior Member
Sure, it's possible. You don't even need much precision, because you don't have to know which velocity layer a note is in when you record it. The way it's done is you record rising and falling dynamics a bunch of times, then sort the individual notes by volume, and figure out which velocity layer they belong to at that point.
X-Bassist
Senior Member
There are pianos fit with midi control (either factory or aftermarket) so yes, wih piano it is technicaly possible (can record or playback midi). Will you notice the difference between layers 55 and 56? Probably not. 20 or so velocity layers with round robins is probably as extensive as it needs to be.
Question is, does it sound at all good out of the box? A mediocre sound recorded and programmed well is not that useful. And a good sound with bad programming is just a hassle to use. Both are really needed to get a great sounding, usable piano, especially with more dynamic layers.
Question is, does it sound at all good out of the box? A mediocre sound recorded and programmed well is not that useful. And a good sound with bad programming is just a hassle to use. Both are really needed to get a great sounding, usable piano, especially with more dynamic layers.
OP
OP
Erick - BVA
Music is more than just color and rhythm
That's a good point. All that matters is what the actual volume is in the final recording, regardless of what's you're trying to do. Then you better be dang sure that your recording methods remain the same throughout the entire recording process
. But my question about the necessity of it still remains. 76? What's the most that any piano library has out there?
OP
OP
Erick - BVA
Music is more than just color and rhythm
I'm an amateur sample library developer myself, so I feel uneasy commenting on the quality of other libraries. However, to be honest, I am not too impressed with the actual sound of it. It sounds too tinny or thin to me. Not sure how to describe it. If anyone else likes the sound though, it's only 15EUR. Not sure if you need to buy something else from VSTbuzz to get it though.
pbattersby
Member
When I first read the original post, I tried to imagine the look on the face of a session piano player when the recording engineer says: "Ok, the volume on that note was good, now play the same note 1/76th louder"
DSmolken
Senior Member
Smooth, natural and predictable response to velocity does make me more confident about how a note is going to sound as I'm hitting it, so it probably matters for playability more than it matters for sound. This is one of the nice things about Pianoteq - it has the equivalent of 127 perfectly calibrated layers.
I learned about the "record'em all and let the Reaper sort'em out" method from the SM Drums guys, I think. With a piano I'd be more worried that sampling just one low note that many times will take a half hour to record because low notes have very long sustain, so the whole piano will take days, but there are ways around that, too.
I learned about the "record'em all and let the Reaper sort'em out" method from the SM Drums guys, I think. With a piano I'd be more worried that sampling just one low note that many times will take a half hour to record because low notes have very long sustain, so the whole piano will take days, but there are ways around that, too.
erica-grace
Senior Member
Hmmmm - Not sure if that is how the majority of developers do it. I would think that, with whatever instrument it is, they have the musicians play the proper dynamics, and then edit those dynamics into Kontakt, no?
erica-grace
Senior Member
Isn't VSL's piano froma few years ago 127 velocity layers per note?
Lee Blaske
Senior Member
The SonicCouture Hammersmith piano library (one of my favorites) was recorded with player technology to accurately capture the dynamic levels. I do believe this is something machines can do better than humans. Not that many levels, though. 76 levels sounds like a bit of overkill to me.
https://www.samplelibraryreview.com/the-reviews/review-the-hammersmith-from-soniccouture/
https://www.samplelibraryreview.com/the-reviews/review-the-hammersmith-from-soniccouture/
DSmolken
Senior Member
I'm sure most do proper dynamics with more reasonable numbers of layers, but with lots and lots of layers, the "go from quiet to loud and back a bunch of times" method becomes more practical, especially with drums. Getting a robot to do it mechanically would work for pianos, too.
Lee Blaske
Senior Member
FWIW, a lot of instruments, especially things like a Yamaha Motif, do this with a combination of a limited number of samples, augmented with filtering and dynamic level control to get all the in-between levels.
