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3d depth/Big room

Discussion in 'Mixing, Post-Production, and Effects' started by Andrasia, May 3, 2018.

  1. Andrasia

    Andrasia Member

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    Jun 13, 2014
    Hi There,

    I'm confronted to a problem : I often find that my mix (mostly hybrid orchestral)lack a sense of depth and bigness.

    I can put element back relative to each other and so it create a kind of depth but I have problem to create the illusion that's the instrument are in a big and wide room.

    For exemple: my guitars sound more upfront than my brass but they doesn't seems to be in a large space neither.

    Another example : in this cue :


    The brass are not washed in reverb but still they sound like in a mega space.

    I'm sure it's a lot a small and smart move but maybe you point me some direction?

    In summary my question is : how to put an element in front but still in a big room?

    Maybe using more predelay on verb?

    Cheers,
     
  2. Studio E

    Studio E Eric Watkins

  3. Wake

    Wake Senior Member

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    Mar 27, 2017
    Grab the excellent TDR Proximity plugin. It's free and it will help you immensely. It's not (just) about manipulating reverb.
     
    karelpsota likes this.
  4. Maxime Luft

    Maxime Luft Senior Member

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    It really depends on which library you're using.
    With extremely dry libraries like Chris Hein's, which are great for detailed and expressive stuff, it will be nearly impossible to get this inherent big roomy sound. (please prove me wrong!)

    Technology isn't just there yet. And think of everything required to make sample libraries: you have to hire a decent sound engineer who will be able to record this massive three dimensional hollywood sound.

    No convolution or EQ may replace that. Orchestral Tools' Metropolis Ark series is great for that, 8dio and musicalsampling's trailer brass as well. I'm sure some other libraries tried to nail it too, plenty of discussions about it here ;)

    https://vi-control.net/community/threads/trailer-brass-vs-cinebrass-pro.70578/
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  5. OP
    OP
    Andrasia

    Andrasia Member

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    Jun 13, 2014
    Thanks you,

    As I say my main problem was not placing element relative to each other but more to achieve that's huge room sound.
    But thanks Ill try using more the mic position of the library I use!

    Cheers
     
  6. AlexanderSchiborr

    AlexanderSchiborr Senior Member

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    May 1, 2014
    Post your music, then I and others can tell you better why you have that problem. Maybe you see that as problem, but maybe you have a different problem.who knows
     
  7. Greg

    Greg Senior Member

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    Mar 16, 2012
    Los Angeles
    You need to use 2 or more reverbs ideally on an aux bus. One for the short room reflections and one for the long reverb tail. The balance should be something like 30% dry 60% room 10% long. Your room reverb can be a massive space like that one, a hall, church, stage, studio room, whatever sounds good to you. Just make sure the reverb time is very short on that one (less than 1 second.) Then your long reverb can be something crazy like the eventide black hole, or audiodamage eos with a long tail (2.5 seconds or more). Keep those big reverbs subtle, usually you only need like 10-20% on an aux.

    I use a lot of aux reverbs (10 or more) because each element sounds better in a different space, especially for trying to get your mix to sound 3d. Orchestral elements really depend on the mic positions, every library is different.
     
    Alexandre, MartinH. and NoamL like this.
  8. WindcryMusic

    WindcryMusic Senior Member

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    Seconded. I only just became aware of this plugin today. Grabbed and slapped it into a little mockup project I'd made using Albion ONE, and hoo boy where has this plugin been all of my life? Unbelievably effective ... in moments I was able to make the horns and bassoons sit in my virtual orchestral space in a way they never have before. TDR Proximity is going into my new template, and in a big way. I'd be paying list price for it right now ... if it had a price.

    https://www.tokyodawn.net/proximity/
     
    goalie composer likes this.
  9. pderbidge

    pderbidge Senior Member

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    Mar 23, 2014
    Utah
    What studio E said. There are certainly limitations on how big a sample can sound however I've worked with mix engineers that can take a single guitar track recorded dry in the studio and make it sound huge like a wall of guitars. This "can" be done with samples as well. There even may be a plugin or an epic library that makes this easier however there is nothing that will replace learning the art of mixing. The knowledge is out there you just have to be willing to get it. The pro audio files is a great place to start.
     
    ghobii likes this.
  10. Fugdup

    Fugdup Member Of The Year

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    Watch Mike Verta's template balancing class. He explains creating depth very well, not only by using reverbs, but by EQing, stereo imaging etc.
    You don't want your horns to sound like they're played through a PA system, which is exactly what happens if you don't cut out some lows and highs.
     
    Farkle likes this.
  11. JimR.

    JimR. Member

    Yep EQ used with verbs and delays can all work well.
     
  12. Kubler

    Kubler Senior Member

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    France
    I may be asking a dumb question, but have you tried to tweak the mic settings of the instrument you want to sound "bigger" ? Because reverb is only part of the problem, and I think that the part you're looking into is rather about the timbre changes that occur depending on the (virtual) distance between your instruments and you.

    I'll just take your example about the brass. With a Close mic, they will keep sounding crisp and relatively narrow, no matter how wet you put them into your mix. Typically though, mics like Decca, Surround or equivalents will allow you to achieve this feeling of large room without having to drown your piece in reverb.

    It depends on the type of instrument you're using obviously, I don't believe there's a lot of mic positions in a guitar library. And in library X this Decca mic will sound better while in library Y that Surround mic will seem more adapted. But that should do the trick for most of orchestral stuff. Anyways this technique makes my life way more easy when it comes to the "hollywood sound".
     
    JimR. likes this.
  13. aaronventure

    aaronventure Senior Member

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    Apr 10, 2017
    You need multiple taps of the sound, each with its own pan setting a delay.

    If you think how an orchestra is mic'd, the trumpet, for example, will first hit its close mics, then the mics for woodwinds, then for violas or whatever, and will only later on hit the main tree mics. It'll take them even longer to hit the back room mics. They'll also appear on all the other close mics that are panned all across the spectrum.

    So when you listen to an orchestral recording and hear trumpets, you're not just hearing one microphone. You're hearing 3 from the decca, 2 outriggers, 2 back room mics, 2 or 4 close trumpet mics and all the other mics in room, each with its own pan setting on the mixer and naturally recorded delay. That is the sound of an orchestra in a room.
     
    pderbidge likes this.
  14. davidgary73

    davidgary73 Senior Member

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    Last edited: Jul 11, 2018
  15. OP
    OP
    Andrasia

    Andrasia Member

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    Jun 13, 2014
    Hi all and thanks for your answer, I was able to get more closer to the sound I'm looking for by fine tuning the mic , still experimenting with yours tips to accentuate the effect!

    Cheers
     
  16. JimR.

    JimR. Member

    I agree with @Kubler. Most of the larger room sounds I achieve are gotten by selecting the right mic positions. Balancing and even automating them to bring definition or set instruments back on the stage or theater. Most modern libraries gave mic selections available via Kontakt as the UI. Also, using just one library for a section won't give you a "fuller" sound. I use multiple libraries for each section. Depending on whether I want definition or a larger room sound. I use reverb sparingly. Only to place certain instruments in the orchestra that don't have mic selections available in their UI's.
     
    Kubler likes this.

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