2CAudio Precedence spatialization plug - opinions

Discussion in 'Mixing, Post-Production, and Effects' started by brett, Oct 11, 2018 at 7:42 PM.

  1. brett

    brett Senior Member

    422
    76
    Jul 14, 2010
    This has just been released.

    I’m interested in opinions, especially from people who have other positioning plug-ins like SPAT, VSS or even the new SP2016 with the positioning slider, that sort of thing.

    Cheers
     
    Zoot_Rollo likes this.
  2. Zoot_Rollo

    Zoot_Rollo Throbbing Member

    751
    400
    Jul 1, 2016
  3. gregh

    gregh Senior Member

    806
    499
    Feb 1, 2015
    i was underwhelmed by Precedence - maybe not using it on the right material, but I did not find it gave a very strong impression of depth in particular.
     
    Zoot_Rollo likes this.
  4. Zoot_Rollo

    Zoot_Rollo Throbbing Member

    751
    400
    Jul 1, 2016
    i had the same experience.

    left and right was great, but the free Panagement did a better job with depth.

    the manual will be published soon, may reveal operator error.
     
    gregh likes this.
  5. Andrew Souter

    Andrew Souter Senior Member

    324
    129
    Mar 18, 2009
    Hi guys,

    I'm still doing final web preps etc, and compiling demo sounds/mixes etc. I will be sure to come back and discuss this thoroughly here with all you guys asap.

    Quickly though, the most important thing to realize regarding Distance is that for Orchestral / Scoring work, we expect/advocate the Precedence be followed by Breeze 2.1, directly on tracks. Enable P-Link in Breeze 2.1. Then set Breeze Mix/Balance to the same value as Precedence Distance. Now you will have the full expected depth/distance result.

    Precedence provides 100% of the Left-Right positioning and about half of the distance positioning. Breeze 2.1 (or eventually B2 or Aether) supplies the other half.

    Distance perception in enclosed spaces is very dependent on the "Direct to Reflected Energy Ratio" (i.e. Mix in standard music production terms) and also the "Initial Time Gap" (i.e. Pre-Delay in standard music production terms). Everyone knows intuitively "more verb means father away" to some extent", but there is wide misunderstanding about how to use Pre-Delay properly in a manner that agrees with other distance cues.

    If you load Precedence and then Breeze on a track and set Precedence Distance and Breeze Mix to the same value the distance illusion will be completed perfectly. If you do this for 16 tracks in parallel and each has a different position in Precedence, you will have 16 instruments properly positioned with a unified space.

    Without Precedence, using P-Link in Breeze will still help establish some distance cues and keep them agreeing with one another. It can be nice to work that way even without Precedence. It still gives *some* of the proper perceptual cues. Rather like simple Gain Panning gives *some* perceptual cues about Left-Right position. It works to some degree, but it can be much better when ALL perceptual cues agree with one another.

    Breeze defines a space. Precedence can put the source sound anywhere you like within this space.

    If you ignore "Direct to Reflected Energy Ratio" and "Initial Time Gap" cues which come from reverb, i.e. if you use ONLY Precedence, you will not get the full distance effect. But this is similar to saying if you mix your dry orchestral samples without reverb it won't sound like a real-world performance. We expect there will be reverb. And ideally that reverb will come from Breeze 2.1.

    Without the distance cues related to reverb, the strongest ones are gain and high frequency loss. For music mixing you don't really want us reducing the gain of your tracks drastically based on distance (like it seems the example above does?). This would be physically accurate, and good for sound-FX and virtual reality, but for music mixing, it's best to let the track faders control mix levels IMHO. So we don't add any gain loss purely by distance.

    We do add high frequency loss, but we do not do so in extreme manners bc this would also probably not be appropriate for music mixing. You can increase this effect by increasing the Freq Delta value.

    We add other sophisticated distance cues in Precedence, but they are designed to work best in a model of an enclosed space: i.e. concert hall, or algo verb approximation thereof. The signal is pre-conditioned to expect the verb to supply the other cues. Breeze 2.1 will supply them completing the illusion. It's synergistic.

    We are exploring now establishing communication between Precedence and Breeze instances, so that changing position in Precedence automatically updates Breeze as well. This will be the eureka moment! We hope to have that ready in the next 30-60 days. Until then for orchestral/scoring work:

    Add Precedence.
    Add Breeze 2.1
    Enable P-Link in Breeze 2.1
    Set Distance in Precedence
    Set Mix/Balance in Breeze 2.1 to match Distance in Precedence


    more later, with audio examples... thanks
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2018 at 10:03 PM
  6. Andrew Souter

    Andrew Souter Senior Member

    324
    129
    Mar 18, 2009
    Here are a few quick examples:



    The first is made by Beat Kaufmann, who was kind enough to make this amazing mix example! It's using VSL libraries as I understand. First the full mix with Precedence and Breeze 2 on each track. Then a mono signal as this what Precedence would have been receiving if you use the mono-input modes. Then the stereo samples, exactly as they came out of VSL with nothing else.

    Other misc examples. P with B, and P alone for some ambience effects. A synth example or two. Many more to come.

    The Handle Trumpet example and Dual Violin examples I posted here a few months ago, while we were discussing similar topics and I was working on this, in part inspired by discussions that started here!
     
    jamwerks, Zoot_Rollo and Saxer like this.
  7. jamwerks

    jamwerks Senior Member

    3,758
    595
    Mar 21, 2010
    Hi Andrew, excited about this plug-in. Any examples using Century Strings (or Brass) or Anthology would be much appreciated. They are all center recorded libraries!
     
    Francis Bourre likes this.
  8. Saxer

    Saxer Senior Member

    3,374
    3,082
    Mar 30, 2008
    Frankfurt/Germany
    How do I update from Breeze 2 to 2.1? Is the Demo version working as a full version when I own a license of Breeze 2? Or is it a payed update?
     
  9. Andrew Souter

    Andrew Souter Senior Member

    324
    129
    Mar 18, 2009
    I would like to get in contact with the leading library developers, particularly those with dry libraries, and make some presets to match these specific libraries, yes. Hopefully I could make some progress on this by the end of the year or so. Either myself or others experienced with these libraries, or some collaborative effort.
     
    jamwerks, Francis Bourre and FinGael like this.
  10. Andrew Souter

    Andrew Souter Senior Member

    324
    129
    Mar 18, 2009
    2.0 -> 2.1 is a free update. Just go to "My Downloads" in the web store, and you should see it labeled as Breeze 2.1.

    BTW you guys should really like this:

    in both Precedence and Breeze 2.1. I know it was requested here previously, so we did it.
     
  11. Saxer

    Saxer Senior Member

    3,374
    3,082
    Mar 30, 2008
    Frankfurt/Germany
  12. OP
    OP
    brett

    brett Senior Member

    422
    76
    Jul 14, 2010
    Hi @Andrew Souter

    Does this mean that both Precedence and Breeze need to be insert effects? What about with Breeze as a send?

    B
     
    jamwerks likes this.
  13. JeffvR

    JeffvR Senior Member

    153
    79
    Dec 4, 2010
    What annoys me with panagement is you can't pan a mono track. If you pan to the left nothing happens, if you pan to the right it stays mono and in the middle but it acts like a low pass filter. Or maybe I'm doing something wrong? I'd love to pan mono recorded tracks and not have to make them stereo to do so.
     
  14. jamwerks

    jamwerks Senior Member

    3,758
    595
    Mar 21, 2010
    I'm going to give this combo (Precedence & Breeze 2.1) a try on my VSL WW's template, comparing to MirX Teldex.

    Having 32 instruments in the WW's (complete package plus some custom made combos), would 32 instances of Breeze be necessary? Many thanks
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018 at 5:11 AM
  15. Andrew Souter

    Andrew Souter Senior Member

    324
    129
    Mar 18, 2009
    Well, "need" is an strong word, and absolutes make me uncomfortable. ;) Precedence should definitely be an insert directly on tracks. I would go as far as to say that is a "need".

    What I think is a very interesting new development in spatialization and reverb workflow is to put an instance of verb directly after it on an insert and to link/sync/pair them together either manually at the moment, or to establish communication between them via coding magic so that things can be set synergistically auto-magically. I believe this can open up new levels of spatial realism, and I believe the scoring community would benefit a lot from this. It is a rather novel approach and can theoretically "correct" many of the weakness of using shared verbs. Working this way would mean a 1:1 paring of a spatializer/positioner such as Precedence and reverb such a Breeze. So in this case both Precedence and Breeze should be on inserts, directly on the track, yes. This is the most exciting option IMHO. I suppose a way to think about that paradigm is that it is something like an algorithmic version of the Multi-Impulse-Response approach, but with all the benefits of algo verb such as modulation etc. In this way you have basically an infinite model of a given space, and it is slightly different every-time you play it back. It's akin to an Infinite Impulse Response approach, pun intended.

    Other less extreme variations are possible, such as to make small groups of instruments where each track has a Precedence instance, and they all go to a group that holds the verb. In this case you would not use the hypothetical auto-magical link and instead do a manual linking/setting of the Mix/Distance value in Breeze to the average of the tracks in the group.

    You might even like to have one or two extra global verbs on sends or on the master that add a little extra shared tail for a final touch of glue. B2 could be good for this.
     
    jamwerks likes this.
  16. dgburns

    dgburns it was done an hour ago, but I can't help myself

    1,526
    301
    Nov 4, 2012
    @Andrew Souter - why no surround versions?

    stereo is so, well.... stereo.
     
  17. Nathanael Iversen

    Nathanael Iversen Senior Member

    269
    128
    Mar 25, 2013
    I am very impressed on my initial exploration. I've started with just raw synths - sources that have ZERO spacial information. The combination, when used as Andrew suggests works very well. Sounds push back into the distance, they occupy the assigned position left/right. The slight modulation really helps things come together. It will be a bit before I redo orchestra template stuff - using VSS2.0 right now there, but this is welcome for my synth rig and turning it into a much more dimensional sound.
     
  18. Andrew Souter

    Andrew Souter Senior Member

    324
    129
    Mar 18, 2009

    we like surround. we are aware of and share the desire for surround.
     
  19. Garlu

    Garlu Senior Member

    281
    115
    Nov 7, 2008
    Valencia, Spain
    Keep us posted! ;)
     
    Consona and jamwerks like this.
  20. Andrew Souter

    Andrew Souter Senior Member

    324
    129
    Mar 18, 2009
    Regarding the topic of linking/syncing Precedence and Breeze (and/or other future updates of our verbs):

    Another possibility is to keep Precedence as its own standalone product/plug-in, but allow it ALSO to be an "unlock-able add-on module" in our verbs. So in Breeze 2.x for example you would enter a License for the Breeze part, and optionally another License for Precedence (the one you just bought - if you did already - NOT ANOTHER FEE ). Then if you wanted to use Precedence and Breeze together you would just load Breeze and the Precedence GUI would be another page accessible within Breeze.

    Pricing for Precedence would be the same. You would still have the ability to use Precedence separately, or with other third party verbs, or by itself etc. You would still have the ability to use Breeze without Precedence.

    This would then obviously be less complicated for you to set up than the intra-plugin communication option, and is 100% certain to keep Precedence and Breeze parameters synced in all possible hosts.

    Feedback welcome... this product was designed with everyone in this forum in mind, so we are quite open to suggestions on what the best workflow is for you to integrate it into your templates.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2018 at 11:50 PM
    pipedr, Olivier1024 and Saxer like this.

Share This Page