12 Years Old. Twelve. There is hope for humanity.

Discussion in 'Composition, Orchestration & Technique' started by robgb, Nov 6, 2018.

  1. Living Fossil

    Living Fossil Senior Member

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    It means that you, as a subjective being, reflect aspects of your perception/life in a way that has relevance to others.
    It's about extracting structures/mechanisms that harbor insights.
     
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  2. Chr!s

    Chr!s Senior Member

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    I'm still not sure what that is.

    How do I determine if music has that or not? How do I reflect aspects of my life or perception in something like music? How can I be sure other people are "getting it"? If they're not getting it, does that mean my work says nothing? How many people have to get it before I can be sure that it says something substantial?
     
  3. Parsifal666

    Parsifal666 I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.

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    Maybe you should take a nap and then try reading it again.
     
  4. Parsifal666

    Parsifal666 I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.

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  5. Chr!s

    Chr!s Senior Member

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    Maybe you should answer the questions
     
  6. Living Fossil

    Living Fossil Senior Member

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    Now, these are good questions. I guess, the answers might be subjective.
    That's a tough and complex area and usually, it takes lots of time, until the relevance of an artist can be valued in an adequate manner [but i'm sure that lots of great artists never get the attention they deserved].
    For me, an effective method to judge "epigonal" pieces relies in comparing them to the "originals". (And sometimes, it's the shortfalls of epigonal pieces that improve my respect for the "originals")
    There is a huge existing knowledge about musical hermeneutics. These tools can help you to analyse the core of the inner network of a specific piece of music in order to approach the specific "substance". To put it in an overly simplified way: relevant works always use models to a certain extent. But at a specific point, the model is distorted/modified. What follows, is a stringent justification for the inconsequence. And the justification carries the "message".
    You find this pattern in every substantial piece of Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc, etc, etc.
    I don't hear any of this in AD's exercises.
    I hear this pattern sometimes in music that doesn't represent my personal preferences - e.g. Rap music; hip hop etc etc.
    So i guess, while it's impossible to make clear distinctions, there are parameters one can approach by listening carefullly...
     
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  7. Jimmy Hellfire

    Jimmy Hellfire Senior Member

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    Yes, perfectly descriptive!
     
  8. gregh

    gregh Senior Member

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    and if what you do is popular it means your idea of insight (and your ability to build music that reflects that insight to you) etc is shared by many others.

    Similarly if you think it is a successful piece and are happy with it as "good music" then your insights are probably being shared by people whose taste and opinions matter to you and who tell you that is so. That might be a fairly small number of people, but if you really value their judgement then you will be pleased and feel successful.

    If you are lucky then those two different aspects of social acceptance coincide.
     
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  9. mikeh-375

    mikeh-375 Senior Member

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    Absolutely Greg. There is a case (that might be applicable to AD for example), for encouraging originality that lies beyond the immediate perception of many if the talent is there. Assuming the determination and perhaps personal conviction of an artist, regardless of life situation to go down that route, the attitude that Living Fossil succinctly alludes to below...

    ......feels right to me. For me, any aspiring artist should be encouraged to find their own balance within and not be beholden to the whims of popularity - rather the dictates of what they feel they need. I suggest that an artist who develops in this manner is more likely to have an impact and garner sincere, honest relevance in people's minds. As Greg intimates, one has an ideal audience even if only fictitious/imaginary for most, but regardless, success and achievement can be measured in several ways (I am only talking about high brow concert music btw).
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 12:56 AM
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  10. gregh

    gregh Senior Member

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    I've written on this topic in a book review from a few years ago (OMG it is 14 years ago!)

    "Art practice can be seen as a component within the exchange of representations. The dominant social practice is to transmit core representations–representations that are read immediately by many–and most art has this function. However art also has an exploratory function within the space of all possible representations - from an evolutionary perspective it is adaptive for the group to have a representation space available that allows for understanding the present environment whilst also being able to represent possible environments. Such a system makes the group robust in the face of environmental change. Innovative art practice can then be interpreted as a claim for the necessity to foreground new representational parameters, such as chance events, abstract forms, and biological systems, or as a claim that areas of the existing representation space are under-explored or under-represented within the core. It is inevitable that most explorations will end in failure–if the world is changing in unexpected ways then some artworks will get the future right and others will not. And artworks that were once radical explorations can become core if the changed circumstances they represent lock in over time."

    http://www.realtimearts.net/article/issue60/7376
     
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  11. mikeh-375

    mikeh-375 Senior Member

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    Oh..I LIKE that Greg.... Darwinian music....eloquently stated and for me, also implies the value of technique - one missed by people who decry it - the ability to explore unchartered space confidently, whilst retaining a tangible link to perceived normality, thus retaining a sense at least of progress if only in the mind of the writer. Proclivities decide if the artist discards the foundations of course, once new space has been found.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 1:58 AM
  12. Parsifal666

    Parsifal666 I don't even own a DAW, I'm just a troll.

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    Why bother interfering with your pretended ignorance?
     
  13. Chr!s

    Chr!s Senior Member

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    There is no "pretended ignorance". What is with the 'tude, dude?

    I'll be honest with you, I still don't really get what living fossil is getting at. I think it has to do with personal style.

    Here's the way I see it: Music, like all art, is ultimately a craft, and a craft can be learned. Therefore, there is really only "good" and "bad", and you'll find that through history, there were certain, generally unanimously accepted standards for "good" and people long to see it return decades or centuries later. Even Mozart's "musical joke" is a damn great piece. Especially by today's standards.

    I know that may sound like an overly materialistic view on something that we can apply so many immaterial philosophies to and we can partake in for immaterial reasons, but we still have to acknowledge the material reality.

    This thread starts off with a girl who is just trying to make good music, and it happens to be reminiscent of a bygone age instead of taking easy road and going with the lowest common denominator.

    What does she get for it?

    Shit on with a bunch of elitist nonsense for not being original enough by people who are also probably nothing terribly ground-breaking, and unfounded accusations of being some privileged, ruling class, elite "wunderkind".

    Sorry, but I'm not seeing what the problem with her is. Hope for humanity hasn't risen too much.
     
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  14. Living Fossil

    Living Fossil Senior Member

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    I guess this way to think is what hinders you in understanding.
    Art is more than a craft.
    Craft is a (big) part of art.
    But creativity is much more than craft.
    (maybe it would be useful for you to reread some posts and try to understand them. It's quite destructive to oppose things that one doesn't understand)
     
  15. Chr!s

    Chr!s Senior Member

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    Maybe, but I don't think it actually matters to be honest. It's just subjective, philosophical debate to try and justify why X isn't as much art as Y or whatever.

    A composer I know told me once that the more "artistic" someone is, the less affinity they have for conventional thinking or even just common decency — in time, I've come to see that he's right.

    I stand by my point regarding the girl. There's just nothing here that justifies the amount of asshurt in this thread.
     
  16. Living Fossil

    Living Fossil Senior Member

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    Two things.
    1.)
    Musical hermeneutics and musical semantics are far more than subjective, philosophical debates. They are areas of the humanities that were formed over several centuries.
    That you don't know this part of musicology doesn't mean it doesn't exist.
    That you obviously have no noteworthy knowledge on this area doesn't give you the competence to judge it (that would be a typical Dunning-Krueger)
    You put yourself on the standpoint (at least in this discussion) that if you ignore something, it automatically ceases to exist.
    However, that's not the case.
    Ignoring gravitation won't stop you falling if you jump down a cliff...

    2.)
    Of course you are completely free to like AD's music and see a source of personal joy and benefit in it. There can't be any dictates of taste and appreciation.
     
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  17. Chr!s

    Chr!s Senior Member

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    This is not something that anyone beyond academic types care about, man. 99% of people will have absolutely no idea what you're talking about here.

    People want to hear good music, and the composer's job is simply to write the best music that they can, and that may appeal to different individual tastes. But we can compare certain types and techniques over time that are largely accepted as better or good practice.

    You must understand my issue here:

    This is a thread of mostly middle-age men getting on high-horses and arguments because a 12-year-old girl is making music that doesn't appeal to their sensibilities.

    [​IMG]
     
  18. mikeh-375

    mikeh-375 Senior Member

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    Well, Chris, I hope you don't include this middle-aged git in your generality. I have nothing but praise and hope for her and see nothing wrong with informed speculation about how her future may develop. As for "elitist nonsense", the paradigms talked about here are not media/utility music influenced and are based on necessarily deeper understandings of the craft and art of music because of what it actually takes to even attempt profound (even original!) utterances in concert music. If you don't get that, don't be so dismissive. AD is a rare phenomenon and I hope she develops into an important composer. Of course, if she gets into Epic music you had all better watch out...:sneaky:
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 3:58 AM
  19. Living Fossil

    Living Fossil Senior Member

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    Same goes for quantum physics. Still, doesn't make it inexistent or useless.

    I can only speak for myself: Personally, i'm deeply disgusted by the way she's exploited.I don't think it's a good thing to hype children and expose them to a large public.
    And i also don't see an artistic justification for the produced hype. I think she is still far away from having found a voice as an artist which would make it useful to expose her to the public.
    At the moment, it's much too early and this may spoil her or even ruin her career on the long run. It's like picking a peach from a tree while it's still green.

    And: When you write "men" and "girl" i only miss that you write "white privileged men". I'm sure not a single person in this forum cares about the gender of a specific Wunderkind.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2018 at 4:17 AM
  20. Jerry Growl

    Jerry Growl Senior Member

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    I'm not going to read all of the above. Sorry guys.

    First time I heard about her.
    As an improvising pianist I was pretty entertained by her wits:



    I do like the way her brain works.
    She dances, giggles and noodles like a kid even though her playing blocks are solid music schooling and great performing skills. No harm done. Some will probably call here odd. But that's usually a complement.
     
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