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VSL Synchron Steinway D is coming...

But what is the point of high res when Ivory only have 20-22 locked recorded velocity layers ? As far as I know only pure math calculation use full high res midi beyond 127. Sorry if I don`t know exactly whats going on.

I have to agree with this. Even VSL with over 100 is still under 128 and still more than enough for a piano in my opinion. The original concept of midi was made so wonderfully obsolescence-resistant! I'm intrigued by HD midi though. This is the first I've heard of it
 
Hi, this is not my field at all but as a physicist I could share with you some reasonings.
In general the instruments are highly complex physical bodies with a lot of complex interactions between their different parts. So, of course, just sampling the different notes and then playing them together does not keep count of these interactions.

One thing that comes to my mind is that our instruments are tuned with the 12 intervals evenly divised. That means that, in general, the frequency of each note is calculated from the semitone lower note by multiplying the frequency for (2)^(1/12). So, the SOL of the piano has not 3 times the frequency of a lower DO.
However, it exists a physical phenomen called synchronization that you can see in this video:


I do not know exactly how it enters in the physics of a piano with many keys pressed but my intuition says that it is connected.
As someone said next, there was a group that preferred to sing together. I think the explanation is the same. By singing together they are more likely singing notes that are harmonically connected.

There are also the resonances that take place, especially when the sustain pedal is down. It's not the same phenomenon even if it is connected to synchronization.
I know that some sample libraries try to take account of resonances, but when there are many notes the resonances can become quite difficult to calculate.

Do not take this as the true explanation, these are just thoughts that I had by reading the posts in this thread.


Great example. I remember seeing that metronome video before. It would be interesting to know to what extent this is going on with strings on a piano soundboard.
 
I notice they have him playing the samples from a Lachnit keyboard. These are handmade MIDI controllers from Vienna by a former Bosendorfer master technician (which is an extremely prestigious position). This controller can output high-def MIDI (4096 levels) or standard. Does anyone know if the VSL Synchron pianos respond to high-def MIDI? I have a VAX77 that can output it, and is optically triggered like the Lachnit in the video.

[UPDATED]: Paul at VSL confirmed that it responds to standard MIDI only. No High-def. Not at all a deal-breaker, I just wanted to know.


Would there be any practical way that more than 127 levels of MIDI info could be used, if you didn't have more than 127 separate dynamic levels of samples?
 
If it works for modeled pianos, why not for samples? It isn't about having 4096 dynamic levels, or something. It is about having natural small variation from note to note. Whether it triggers more than 20 or even 100 recorded samples is not the point. How does it trigger them? how does it adjust attack/release, harmonic density, whatever. There is plenty of math in a sample library that would suffice as a place to implement something. This isn't even about conscious control by the player. I can't play 128 discrete velocity levels, and neither can anyone else. It is about having the sound feel more alive. Pianoteq does this on a high-def MIDI controller. It doesn't sound quite the same as excellent samples, but the player experience is pretty spot on for expression. How do these get married up in a "SampleModelling" kind of way. Sample, but with the extra. String resonance is one such attempt in the programming. Surely there are more or can be better executed?

I don't have a specific ask. I'm not unhappy. But if it works for synth and model expressiveness, is it reasonable to think there would be other applications? That is my question. Few people have high-def controllers today, but there is no reason to expect this to continue forever.

BTW "HighDef MIDI" is a standard - it is part of the MIDI spec. It uses CC#88 to increase the resolution for each note to 14 bits. The Synthogy Ivory II pianos apparently implement it, which I just found out from a Google search. Pianoteq definitely does.
 
I was listening to the Synchron Steinway demos, and remembered I had a MIDI file of the Chopin Etude Op.10 No.5 (known as the 'Black Keys Etude'), so as a comparison, here it is with another sampled Hamburg Steinway D (hall mics) plus some added Spaces Reverb (NY Hall):

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/hamburg-steinway_d-spaces_chopin_et_op_10_no_5-mp3.16998/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

Attachments

  • Hamburg Steinway_D+Spaces_Chopin_Et_Op_10_No_5.mp3
    3.8 MB · Views: 103
Same MIDI file as above, played with a sampled Imperial Bosendorfer 290 (Hall mics) + Spaces NY Hall reverb. Also some of my own improvised playing (the middle section incorporates a tune based on a demo piece of Troels from 8dio for their 1971 Estonia Grand) highlighting the combination of the Hall mics + Spaces.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bosendorfer-290-spaces_chopin_et_op_10_no_5-mp3.17000/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/bosendorfer-290-spaces_testing-mp3.17001/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

Attachments

  • Bosendorfer 290+Spaces_Chopin_Et_Op_10_No_5.mp3
    3.8 MB · Views: 95
  • Bosendorfer 290+Spaces_Testing.mp3
    4.8 MB · Views: 76
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A member on Piano World Forum was bemoaning the inability of sampled/virtual pianos which could bring out the contrapuntal lines of a Rachmaninoff Prelude as well as a real recording by the pianist Emil Gilels:

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthr...-thats-the-sound-that-i-want.html#Post2789950

Thought I'd see how one of the sampled Hamburg Steinway Ds I have would hold up. Here's the result. (the section he's referring to starts around 1:49 in my audio file).

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sampled-hamburg-d_rach-prelude-in-g-op23-no-5-mp3.17016/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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  • Sampled Hamburg D_Rach Prelude in G - Op23 No.5.mp3
    5.7 MB · Views: 88
Anyone would be kind to provide a sample with closed mics and dry sound please? Would enjoy that so much. thanks in advance. :)
 
With same settings SY Steinway play same MIDI part much louder and harshly in comparison with SY CFX, it needs to compress velocity to bottom (in picture these parts marked as "lower velocity"). Also there is a broken note C2 (in midi C6), I hope this one will be fixed. Standart library was used, one close mic and one mid mic with same mix settings.

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl-sy-steinway-%D0%A16-is-bad-mp3.17023/][/AUDIOPLUS]

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/vsl-sy-steinway-vs-cfx-mp3.17024/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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  • Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 16.53.18.JPEG
    Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 16.53.18.JPEG
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  • Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 16.43.37.JPEG
    Screen Shot 2018-12-11 at 16.43.37.JPEG
    145.9 KB · Views: 18
  • VSL SY Steinway С6 is Bad!.mp3
    420.3 KB · Views: 83
  • VSL SY Steinway vs CFX.mp3
    3.2 MB · Views: 85
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Anyone would be kind to provide a sample with closed mics and dry sound please? Would enjoy that so much. thanks in advance. :)
there is only dry close mic from standart SY Steinway library

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sy-steinway-standart-cloce-mic-only-mp3.17029/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

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  • SY Steinway standart cloce mic only.mp3
    969.6 KB · Views: 116
so, as I think, a best deal for now is to buy a VSL vouchers on the bestservice.com and then buy Steinway also on this site (also check a button "VSL user discount") - at all 229.11$ for a standard version and 335.53$ for full one.
 
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so, as I think, a best deal for now is to buy a VSL vouchers on the bestservice.com and then buy Steinway also on this site (also check a button "VSL user discount") - at all 214.11$ for a standard version and 320.53$ for full one.

Interesting. Could you explain in a little more detail, step by step, how to do that? Can multiple Vienna Vouchers be used to buy one product? I missed where that would get entered.
 
go to https://www.bestservice.de/vienna_library_voucher.html
and buy 4 vouchers for a 300$ (additionally, as free bonus, you can to select one of impulse reverb Hall of fame, Lex300 is very sweet)
After you do it, you will receive a mail from bestservice with suggestion to let them know, if you will want to buy any VSL product. All you need is to write, what product are you want to buy and how many vouchers you want to use (yes, you can use any count of vouchers, but overall price must be more, than price of vouchers.) So, at first a bought standart version% I select a Stainway on bestservice, put it to cart, press a button VSL user discount check, to know, if there is any discounts, and to obtain a price, that I say to bestservice. After it Bestservice made a BestCoin Bonus (- 5,00 $), so, at all for a standard version I made additional payment of 29.11$ to 2 vouchers by PayPal to bestservice.

In previous message I wrote wrong prices - because I has additional 15$ of BestCoin bonus before buying of vouchers.
So, the right prices is 229.11 for standart and 335.53$ for full
 
go to https://www.bestservice.de/vienna_library_voucher.html
and buy 4 vouchers for a 300$ (additionally, as free bonus, you can to select one of impulse reverb Hall of fame, Lex300 is very sweet)
After you do it, you will receive a mail from bestservice with suggestion to let them know, if you will want to buy any VSL product. All you need is to write, what product are you want to buy and how many vouchers you want to use (yes, you can use any count of vouchers, but overall price must be more, than price of vouchers.) So, at first a bought standart version% I select a Stainway on bestservice, put it to cart, press a button VSL user discount check, to know, if there is any discounts, and to obtain a price, that I say to bestservice. After it Bestservice made a BestCoin Bonus (- 5,00 $), so, at all for a standard version I made additional payment of 29.11$ to 2 vouchers by PayPal to bestservice.

In previous message I wrote wrong prices - because I has additional 15$ of BestCoin bonus before buying of vouchers.
So, the right prices is 229.11 for standart and 335.53$ for full

Thanks for all that info! That really is a good deal. I'll end up with the full version for not much more than I'd pay for the standard, and get two of those reverbs in the process (I think... I already got one buying the vouchers). Keeping my fingers crossed it all goes through okay. ;)
 
there is only dry close mic from standart SY Steinway library

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/sy-steinway-standart-cloce-mic-only-mp3.17029/][/AUDIOPLUS]

That dry sample was really helpful. I made an A/B comparison of that, playing something similar on a totally dry version of the Synchron CFX, and it confirmed that the CFX and the Steinway sound quite different.
 
hm, I am not sure about it is possible to get additional 2 reverb in process, because your additional payment is not so big for get a free bonus, but maybe you're lucky)
 
hm, I am not sure about it is possible to get additional 2 reverb in process, because your additional payment is not so big for get a free bonus, but maybe you're lucky)

I get it. No big deal. I've already got a gazillion reverbs, anyway. ;)
 
Re. Dryer sounding demos, the member 'Erard' at Piano World Forum used the VSL Synchron Steinway to render a Chopin Nocturne using a less distant sounding mic mix here (the post has a link to a downloadable WAV file):

https://forum.pianoworld.com/ubbthreads.php/topics/2789070/3.html

As a comparison, here is a MIDI file of the same Chopin Nocturne using another Sampled Steinway D, in this case, The Grandeur:

[AUDIOPLUS=https://vi-control.net/community/attachments/chopin-nocturne-in-d-flat-op-27-no-2-excerpt-spaces-mp3.17045/][/AUDIOPLUS]
 

Attachments

  • Chopin Nocturne in D-flat Op.27 No.2-excerpt-Spaces.mp3
    3.4 MB · Views: 90
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