muk
Senior Member
That's not a reassuring behavior indeed. It looks like Sonible has a much more refined solution, if only for eq.
IZotope Neutron
- Thread starter lpuser
- Start date
That's not a reassuring behavior indeed. It looks like Sonible has a much more refined solution, if only for eq.
R. Soul
Senior Member
I hope you get the issues sorted.
I also use Cubase 8 artist, Win 10 and VST3 and I haven't had such issues.
I was using Neutron standard though, and only a handful of instances.
But the reason why I quoted this above is, this is the exact reason why I'd get Neutron.
I don't get why there's all this talk about Assistant. It's purely a starting point, and I skip Assistant completely. I've also yet to try any presets. Presets are probably good for guitar and violin, but synth leads can vary so much in frequency content, that a preset becomes pointless.
I see Neutron as the best dynamic EQ out there, with the ability to learn all the resonances and set nodes.
The Masking feature is great, with the histogram that shows you were the overlapping frequencies are.
I'd be perfectly happy if they sold the EQ section by itself, but that's probably not going to happen.
Anyway, I think it's a very helpful tool for improving your mixes, but seriously, if you go into it expecting it to do your mixes for you, I think you'll be disappointed.
bryla
Orchestrator
It is not listening for resonances. I opened Neutron on the master bus that was only receiving a drum loop with a 9dB resonant boost of some 3.5k. Neutron didn't do anything to address this.
jcrosby
Senior Member
Yeah, this is a common misunderstanding about how Neutron works. It doesn't "fix" or "correct" anything. (I had the same initial reaction when I first tested it. I assumed it would do something like analyze the dynamic range and apply an "optimal" amount.)
Thinking of it like this helped me understand the reasoning behind some of the choices they probably made...
What point of reference does Neutron have for something being correct vs wrong?
We live in an era where music is filtered for effect, sampled from vinyl, autotuned, glitched, distorted on purpose, bitrate reduced, etc etc... How could Neutron correct something when so much music now is made to deliberately challenge the aesthetics of "good" mixing practices? Also imagine how much longer track assistant would take to run if it had to check in with every other Neutron to see if something was already 'corrected'...
There's all kinds of other reasons why that's a bad approach.
For example if you wanted to go for a Big 1176 crushed sounding drum room, or barely hit it and glue it together, Neutron has no way of understanding which dynamic approach you prefer... (But you can influence its choices. If you haven't discovered it yet or just found this thread the TLDR is: There's a pulldown in the Track Assistant button. Select the 'arrow' where it says 'Track Assistant' and you'll see two pulldowns how you define its choices.... Since pretty much all of us here are working with orchestral material I recommend setting it to subtle unless you're doing a hybrid. trailer ...)
The best it can do currently is guess by choosing what's typical for the instrument it 'discovers' based on the aesthetics you define... You usually do have to fine tune it a little for sure, but it gets you close enough where those few tweaks are painless... Plus tweaking a static preset usually takes a lot more work... I've found it handy for building template presets quickly that I can recall once saved...
The short version is it doesn't "Fix bad audio". And I totally get the reasoning behind that after spending several months testing it... What's good vs what's bad is subjective.. Whether you're going for a lofi vibe or a deliberately distorted mix there's no science on how to 'fix' that... Imagine Neutron trying to 'correct' a Nine inch Nails or Velvet Underground record. Even Radiohead for that matter...
Basically Neutron is just giving you an 'intelligent' preset to start from based on what it analyzes in your audio. It does detect and find fundamentals, harmonics, resonances & mud, and it does learn the compression threshold. The rest are starting places, based on common approaches, and you will probably want to tailor them a little... That being said, a static menu preset has no idea what key you're in and no idea how hot your signal is...
It's not perfect that's for sure, and there are things I think need a lot of improvement... But I do think they made some smart overall choices in the sense that they found a way to make something that adapts to you, does it quickly, and is pretty damn CPU friendly considering what it pulls off...
I'm sure in an ideal world Izotope would take more time to perfect Neutron but that's not how it goes in technology... Someone will put it out there if you don't do it first... They've been really good at setting a new bar with a lot of their products... I think they're way ahead of the curve and probably got it about as good as anyone else could when breaking ground like this...
Hopefully they find ways of letting the us refine its behavior and be more precise... Knowing them they're already on it...
jcrosby
Senior Member
Yes it is. Track assistant is aimed more at painting with a broad brush and is only going to make fairly transparent and safe tonal choices. (But its EQ choices are based on resonance and/or harmonic content it analyzes.)
I have a hunch what's happening is that people are trying the demo and only trying the track assistant. Since the assistant feature is aimed more at making broad strokes people are assuming it doesn't find resonance without understanding how assistant works; and more important why you'd use learn over track assistant.... Like any plugin you have to take time to learn it, and there's a lo to learn...
It does find fundamentals, harmonics and resonance. If you want Neutron to be more surgical, i.e. look for as much resonance as it can find, you should use the learn function in the EQ. This was the first thing I checked, and I checked it on a good 15 to 20 different sources... (Everything from bad dialogue to orchestral instruments to guitars and drums in various genres.) I also rechecked this all throughout testing...
Why would a well respected company risk their reputation by developing a plugin and then claiming it does something it doesn't? It doesn't make sense and most of these claims seem to come from people who either want to dislike Neutron or assume it's a one click operation...
Anyway, I've made some screen captures clearly showing it does. I'll post them sometime today when I have a moment...
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jcrosby
Senior Member
If anyone's curious here are a few tests I did on Neutron's EQ detection accuracy... Hopefully it provides a little more info for anyone considering it, and clarifies some misconceptions that people seem to be throwing around...
Anyway hope you find it interesting if nothing else, and I'd appreciate people refraining from sharing this thread (or the clips) on G.S... (I'm not a huge fan of the egos over there and they don't take kindly when you call bullshit...)
Testing Track Assistant on a drum mix to see why it places EQ nodes where it does...
Seeing how well Neutron detects room resonance on a drum mix...
Seeing if Neutron's EQ learning feature can detect a resonant EQ boost placed before it...
Seeing if I can pull a fast one on Track Assistant by placing a resonant EQ boost before it...
Testing how well the EQ learning feature can detect fundamentals & harmonics on a string ostinato.
(Don't judge! lol.. It's crap...)
Anyway hope you find it interesting if nothing else, and I'd appreciate people refraining from sharing this thread (or the clips) on G.S... (I'm not a huge fan of the egos over there and they don't take kindly when you call bullshit...)
Testing Track Assistant on a drum mix to see why it places EQ nodes where it does...
Seeing how well Neutron detects room resonance on a drum mix...
Seeing if Neutron's EQ learning feature can detect a resonant EQ boost placed before it...
Seeing if I can pull a fast one on Track Assistant by placing a resonant EQ boost before it...
Testing how well the EQ learning feature can detect fundamentals & harmonics on a string ostinato.
(Don't judge! lol.. It's crap...)
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jcrosby
Senior Member
Hey Cee looks like Neutron does use a DC offset filter. It shouldn't be introducing any offset at all... This is from the email they sent out earlier explaining how spectral shaping works...
"To ensure Neutrino does not clip the signal at the output, a DC offset filter and brickwall limiter are the final stages of Neutrino’s processing."
jacobthestupendous
not that stupendous
We're down to final days on intro discount. I'm on the fence about grabbing the Music Production Bundle. Worth it?
Living Fossil
Senior Member
In my opinion it's a very clear "yes".
JT3_Jon
Senior Member
Thanks for the videos jcrosby. To clarify, the only time Neutron is listening to your track and analyzing it is when its in "eq learn" mode, and not in "track assistant" mode, correct? And when its in EQ Learn mode, is it only looking for resonances (which you would probably cut), or does it also place nodes on areas it thinks are lacking in the source and should be boosted?
How well does it find these resonance nodes in instruments that are changing pitches? I see it used on drums, which is good because they dont change pitches, but wouldn't the resonances in say a double bass, change depending on what notes are played, or even what chord you are on? Anyone have experiences they would like to share?
The technology seems very interesting. I'm going to have to try it out. I must say I'm skeptical that it will add enough value for those who already own so many mixing tools. I for sure do not need another compressor, EQ, saturator, etc; I need to learn how to use the ones I already own, lol! But maybe its a case of the sum is greater than the parts?
How well does it find these resonance nodes in instruments that are changing pitches? I see it used on drums, which is good because they dont change pitches, but wouldn't the resonances in say a double bass, change depending on what notes are played, or even what chord you are on? Anyone have experiences they would like to share?
The technology seems very interesting. I'm going to have to try it out. I must say I'm skeptical that it will add enough value for those who already own so many mixing tools. I for sure do not need another compressor, EQ, saturator, etc; I need to learn how to use the ones I already own, lol! But maybe its a case of the sum is greater than the parts?
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jcrosby
Senior Member
IMO it's a steal. Ozone alone is $499. Pretty much everything else in there I use regularly too and Trash is a lot more useful than you'd imagine... I'd say at least demo Neutron, Ozone and Trash. Those 3 alone are a steal and if you do any vocal or voice work Nectar is too...
jcrosby
Senior Member
Track Assistant does place its nodes based on frequency content. If you watch the video I put up called "Track Assistant EQ Boost Detection Test" you'll see it finds the 15 dB EQ boost I made with another EQ inserted before Neutron. (Maybe that wasn't clear from the video. My bad if it was...) I was basically trying to "trick" T.A., but it actually finds the boost I made and puts a cut there. It also picks some of the same frequencies EQ learn does if you watch the 1st video and 2nd video back to back.
What I was trying to show is that Track Assistant does not just pick arbitrary frequencies, and it's not just picking a static preset from the preset list despite some people thinking it does. (I already knew this from testing it for 3 months but wanted it to be clear for anyone who read people claiming it does over at G.S....) Both modes find resonant frequencies, and do it really well...
The main difference is that T.A. has a preset-like template it applies. This template behavior seems to be why some people think it's just picking a preset from the preset list. The template basically is a preset, but it's a preset that adapts to the audio you feed it by listening for resonant frequencies and determining the compression thresholds based on the level of the incoming audio... (It's also Neutron's most basic feature in my opinion.) T.A. is great for people who need to mix quickly or are still learning how to get better at EQ and compression. EQ learn is more of a power-user feature for people who already have an idea of where they want to cut or boost and have a solid understanding of how to create separation using EQ...
EQ learn only finds resonant hot spots. It isn't suggesting what's good or bad, (or as you put it "areas it thinks are lacking"), it's just finding prominent areas of the frequency spectrum... That being said these are often areas you might want to pay attention to... It's kind of the opposite of track Assistant in the sense that you decide what is aesthetically tasteful instead of letting it make suggestions for you...
That's why I described it as a power-user feature; what you do with them is your choice, and is better suited to people who already have a good understanding where problems often build up in mixes... It's basically giving you a place to start looking to make space, but, just because it places a node there doesn't mean you need to do anything with it...
The best way to use EQ learn is in context of the mix. You'd learn the nodes and then start boosting each band with the whole mix playing... Once you start hearing that boost step on other instruments or clog up the mix you probably have a spot where a small cut will help make space... If you want to get fancy you can sidechain that band to a conflicting instrument.
That's a complex issue. It finds pitches fine, but I don't know how well it deals with complex harmony or polyphonic material. Even though I know Neutron pretty darn well, I'm still trying to understand things like this myself since it's new technology... Plus track assistant only runs for around 7-10 seconds, so if you have a long progression then that's probably where you need to start using your ears, and where the masking meter comes into play.
The thing to keep in mind is the musical frequencies are EQ frequencies. Cutting a harmonic in one section might be reducing a fundamental in another... So I only tend to EQ key specific bands if I'm trying to emphasize an instrument. Most of the time I'm more concerned about figuring out where things are trying to occupy the same space and decide which instrument should take priority...
That being said it does often find room resonance, and if you had something like a string section there might be some muddy resonance that you might want to be more concerned about... And again musical frequencies and EQ frequencies are one in the same... so you really should be thinking in terms of how do these things fit together...
Amen to that! Learn the tools you have before buying new ones. A really good EQ and compressor work well on anything, it's learning how to use them that matters
That being said, Neutron is a really good tool for ear training, (in terms of EQ). It certainly would help you identify problem areas quickly and develop a better ear for it.EQ is by far the most powerful, and most destructive tool in the audio toolbox... If it's something you struggle with I would try and see the value in it as being a tool that can help you make better mix decisions quickly and training your ear on what to listen for... If you read through this thread you you see a lot of people who already o that. they'll run Neutron to find areas quickly, or see what T.A. suggests and then apply those settings to Pro-Q2 and Pro-C2, or some other plugin...
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Inceptic
Member
If you shop around, there are even greater discounts than the official intro price. You can also buy the RX Plugin Pack, and then qualify for the Neutron cross-grade price. Which basically lets you get the RX plugs for free! Pretty nice option if you don't need everything in MPB2.
galactic orange
Sensor Number
Don't waste your money on Neutron or Trash. Both are totally useless, and Trash is most certainly not a secret favorite of mine when stem mastering. You'll hate the boatloads of saturation models to choose from. And what is the point of multiband saturation? Useless technology... Ozone 7? Pshaw! Worst limiter in the business with terrible Studer Tape and Pultec emulations...
Just pulled the trigger on the Music Production Bundle 2! (crossgrade from RX5) Your attempt to keep me away was unsuccessful. The deal was too good to resist.
I'm looking forward to ruining otherwise acceptable tracks with these terrible, unusable plug-ins.
jcrosby
Senior Member
Just pulled the trigger on the Music Production Bundle 2! (crossgrade from RX5) Your attempt to keep me away was unsuccessful. The deal was too good to resist.
I'm looking forward to ruining otherwise acceptable tracks with these terrible, unusable plug-ins.
Foiled Again!
Seriously though, Try Trash on different busses or groups using some of the flavors in the saturation menu and some wet/dry mix... It can warm up a stale mix and is anything but trashy
Naoki Ohmori
Member
Don't waste your money on Neutron or Trash. Both are totally useless, and Trash is most certainly not a secret favorite of mine when stem mastering. You'll hate the boatloads of saturation models to choose from. And what is the point of multiband saturation? Useless technology... Ozone 7? Pshaw! Worst limiter in the business with terrible Studer Tape and Pultec emulations...
Hi jcrosby,
It seems to me the comment was opposite to the recent remarks of yours.
It was just a joke or your alter ego said that?
English is not my mother language.
