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Now here...MOTU DP11

chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.
How does Keyboard Maestro help a Windows user?

Are you even keeping up with the recent posts in this thread?
 
How you use your PC is your prerogative, but WinKey is used in a ton of basic global keyboard shortcuts. Taking over it with an application is terrible. You can't even lock your PC if the Windows Key is taken over, unless you mouse over to Start and click three times. The Keyboard Shortcut uses the Windows key. It's not out of the realm of possibility that someone may want to lock their screen while DP is the active application... Or minimize everything to the desktop (Win-D). Or Open a File Explorer Windows (Win-E). Or Maximize (Win-Up) or Restore (Win-Down) an Application.

Most Accessibility Tools on the Windows OS are accessed using the keyboard shortcuts involving the Windows Key... Do you not see how this is a horrible idea?

There is a reason why NO OTHER DEVELOPER uses teh Windows Key for application shortcuts, and the only utilities that lock it are the Function-Win combo in some [gaming] keyboards and gaming presentation utilities that incorporate the function to avoid the user "windowing out" of a full screen task.

There are like 30+ system level global key commands in the OS that use that key. The key is used by the OS precisely to AVOID CLASHING WITH THIRD PARTY APPLICATION SHORTCUTS. By doing this, MOTU has basically designed their DAW to break the system whenever it is in focus.

It should be reserved for Windows, not taken hostage by applications. This is a horrible application design. 100% Broken by Design.

Your statement is nice - in theory - but this isn't the opening up of additional keyboard shortcuts. This seems like lazy porting from macOS to Windows. Because Windows Keyboards do not have a Command Key, MOTU seems to have decided to treat the Windows Key as if it functioned equivalently to Command on macOS; and merely replacing Command in the Key bindings with WinKey when they ported it over to Windows.

They did this with no thought being put to what the ramifications would be to the usability and accessibility of the user's system when their application is in focus.

That's without even getting to the complete disregard for standard key bindings for basic operations on the platform.

Tiny fonts, but literally blocks the Windows System shortcut for the Magnifier. How ironic.
If you dislike DP so much, just use something else. Why waste time complaining about something you obviously despise and can't change? Despite what you might assume, a 4th modifier key does in fact increase the key command options to twice the total number of key commands possible with ctrl, alt and shift.

MOTU hasn't broken anything. Windows works just fine. Yes, I do see how some would be put out by losing their Windows shortcuts, but I guess it depends on what you spend most of your time doing. Once I open a DAW, I rarely need to OS shortcuts. Too busy working. Seriously. It isn't much different for Mac users. The cmd key is used by DP there too, and they've been just fine for years.

Yes, MOTU did use the Win key to replace the command/Apple key, otherwise the Win version of DP would not be compatible with the Mac version, and require a completely new set of default key commands. DP10 and 11 allow you to resize the GUI. Search for it in the manual. There is also a preference to resize some fonts. Both work fine. Some text is still small - a long time complaint, and not one likely to change anytime soon. DP may need a GUI rebuild, but the Cmd/Win key is an asset for those who use it daily. If you don't like it, that's just fine, but you really should find another DAW.
 
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Can’t you just quickly press Alt + Tab to switch to any other app and then use your Win shortcuts to do whatever other thing you wanted to do while using DP?
No. Because some shortcuts are used to bring other applications like File Explorer over the active application etc.

Alt tabbing out is completely missing the point. Why even care, at that point. The point of using the shortcut is to speed up workflow, not slow it down. Your workaround is worse than. Reaching for the mouse to click an icon on the taskbar (which there are also WinKey shortcuts for, BTW).

I can pretty much operate a Windows PC without a mouse, except when DP is in focus.

And I will always try the shortcut first, because NO other application does this, and its what I've been doing for 25+ years. That key does not exist to be used by third party applications in this way.

Like I said, it renders any machine inaccessible when DP is in focus. It completelt nerfs usability by forcing you to reach for a mouse or constantly bounce the app out and into focus.

Do people here even use a Windows machine at all, or beyond basic proficiency. Serious question. I'm wondering if these are Mac users giving "workarounds" without knowing how this actually feels to use or affects usability on the host system.

Do they block global Command Key access on macOS when the DAW is in focus?
 
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I don't use a PC with a windows key, I don't think I've ever owned a PC with a windows key. So I'm not sure why MOTU would be using the windows key for its own commands. I don't have a way right now to test it out so I can only go on the words of Trensharo, but it does sound like, on the surface, MOTU may have used some system level key command modifiers they shouldn't have. I would suggest writing a pleasant letter to MOTU on this point.

@Trensharo, have you tried modifying your DP key commands to avoid conflict with the windows key? Just go into the commands dialog and change all the conflicting key commands. ??
 
chunks and other unique features of DP add up to WAY more then you are making out of that mole hill. As I said you can solve your keyboard frustration with Keyboard Maestro.
Many UI elements are impossible to automate reliably without resorting to pixel search which is slow. For example the track color popup.

I've automated a lot of stuff with AutoHotKey and Keyboard Maestro in DP (love MacOS but Apple doesn't think I'm worthy of having a desktop Mac so I'm forced to use a PC)

I have no issues with using KM or AHK but there is a lot o functionality that should have keyboard access.

The Articulation Map Setup window for example. Try recording the time it takes to create the same expression map in Studio One and then in DP. You will quickly realize that Presonus did their homework and mapped all the crucial controls to the keyboard resulting in a blazing fast workflow.
 
The Articulation Map Setup window for example. Try recording the time it takes to create the same expression map in Studio One and then in DP. You will quickly realize that Presonus did their homework and mapped all the crucial controls to the keyboard resulting in a blazing fast workflow.
Search the key commands window for "Articulation Map Setup", and assign whatever key command you like.

Studio One vs DP: Try assigning program changes to trigger articulations in Studio One. Not supported as of 5.4 (hopefully Presonus will add this eventually). I use program changes exclusively as there are far more available than free keys, especially for libraries like VSL's Synchron series.

I've compared Cubase, DP, ProTools and Studio One with identical templates many times. Each has at least a few advantages over the other three, but Nuendo/Cubase and DP hit the most marks for film scoring (I don't have Logic to compare, but obviously it is also very popular).

Studio One is fine for basic templates, but scrolling through tracks becomes too sluggish with larger templates. S1's articulation mapping from imports and tree-layout is a bit of a visual mess. DP's is much easier to read. Also, DP supports dragging articulation triggers between articulation lanes. Nuendo/Cubase do not (I don't remember if S1 does). Also, no surround in S1. That's a serious limitation for me. Studio One has a lot of great features, but it's interface (especially the track inspector/left side) has some quick-visibility problems.
 
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I really like their implementation of editing articulations in DP11. It's probably the best implementation that I've used thus far (out of Cubase, Logic, Studio One and DP).

The Articulation Map editor is also one the best one I've used.

I don't like how some of the tooltips below the MIDI Editor run off the screen when you're trying to figure out what those checkboxes do. They're unreasonable. Have to resize the DAW window to see them if you're using it maximized.
 
Search the key commands window for "Articulation Map Setup", and assign whatever key command you like. Try assigning program changes and delays to articulation triggers in Studio One. I use program changes exclusively as there are far more available than free keys, especially for libraries like VSL's Synchron series.

I've compared Cubase, DP, ProTools and Studio One with identical templates many times. Each has at least a few advantages over the other three, but only Nuendo/Cubase and DP really hit all of the marks for film scoring.

Studio One is fine for basic templates, but becomes too sluggish with larger templates. S1's articulation mapping from imports is a bit of a visual mess. DP's is much easier to read. Also, DP's articulation lanes support dragging articulations between lanes, Nuendo/Cubase do not (I don't remember if S1 does). Also, no surround in S1. That's a serious limitation for me.
I don't really care about other features in this case. The only thing I compared was the speed of creating expression maps which is really impacted by the omission of the keyboard.

Please try creating an expression map in S1. During almost the entire process your hands don't need to leave the keyboard. Advancing to the next articulation, changing its remote trigger and output parameters all done via the keyboard.

Now do the same in DP feel the resistance and the constant need to reach for the mouse to navigate. So slow in comparison.
 
I don't like how some of the tooltips below the MIDI Editor run off the screen when you're trying to figure out what those checkboxes do. They're unreasonable. Have to resize the DAW window to see them if you're using it maximized.
That's worth filing a Techlink with MOTU support. I reported the tool box menus being cutoff in an earlier version of DP11, and they fixed that, but tool tips are still hidden. That should be fixed. Most of us probably run DP or any DAW maximized.
 
I don't really care about other features in this case. The only thing I compared was the speed of creating expression maps which is really impacted by the omission of the keyboard.

Please try creating an expression map in S1. During almost the entire process your hands don't need to leave the keyboard. Advancing to the next articulation, changing its remote trigger and output parameters all done via the keyboard.

Now do the same in DP feel the resistance and the constant need to reach for the mouse to navigate. So slow in comparison.
I did. The tree structure is a mess. I get the idea, but visually it is terrible for articulations.

But that was all moot point since S1 didn't support program changes. I did create key switch maps just to compare, and S1 is fine once setup - not my favorite though.

Efficient setup windows are great, if they are needed frequently. And S1 does a lot of things right when it comes to navigation - such as highlighting the most relevant entry field, or tabbing through a setup window (good, but limited when adding tracks).

However, I generally setup articulation maps once for my VEP host/slave setup. If we were to compare the fastest for setting up templates, ProTools would win hands down for complete key command/modifier access to adding multiple tracks at once, and then routing multiple tracks as well. In my comparisons, PT beat all of them for speed of setting up a large template for that feature alone. S1 has some of this, but it is still far behind PT. Of course that gain is obviously lost when pitting PT's limited midi editing.

If S1 works great for you - awesome. I do like S1 in general, but it is still missing too much to beat out either Nuendo or DP for scoring, for me at least. Speed really comes down to the whole package - not just setting up a template - first note of sketching ideas, to stems delivery.
 
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Another thing I really like about DP's articulation management...if you are smart about how you name your articulations, you can literally copy and paste notes, phrases or regions from one track to a completely different track using a completely different instrument and articulation map (but with smartly named articulations) and DP will automatically apply the old articulations in the right way. I don't think ANY of the other DAW'S can do that. Also...DP is alone I offering per-articulation latency management.

In the past many people have complained incessantly about the terrible articulation map editors in LogicPro and Cubase...I think MOTU did a much better job then those two. S1 users love to brag about workflow efficiencies in S1 and they aren't entirely wrong, S1 is a relatively new DAW and many smart things were done in it, but I also find it to pretty much always coming up short-of-full on professional duties. It always seems to offer only 75% of what the big long standing power players offer....good enough for writing songs and more simple tasks, but simply falling way short of the others for large projects and certain kinds of situations.. But it does have great drag and drop workflows, and apparently you can touch type your articulation maps in via the keyboard..cool...but still...overall it simply cannot compete for some heavy duty scenarios. I did not upgrade my S1 v4 and will not be upgrading it any time soon. For me, S1 is more like a toy for hobbyists. Why are we talking about S1 on this thread about DP? DP offers way more power then S1, its not even close to the same league.
 
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I did. The tree structure is a mess. I get the idea, but visually it is terrible for articulations.

But that was moot point since S1 didn't support program changes. I did create key switch maps just to compare, and S1 is fine once setup - not my favorite though.

Efficient setup windows are great, if they are needed frequently. However, I generally setup articulation maps once for my VEP host/slave setup. If we were to compare the fastest for setting up templates, ProTools would win hands down for complete key command/modifier access to adding multiple tracks at once, and then routing multiple tracks as well. S1 has some of this, but it is still far behind PT. But that gain is obviously lost when editing midi in PT, if you can call it that.

If S1 works great for you - awesome. I do like S1 in general, but it is still missing too much to beat out either Nuendo or DP for scoring, for me at least.
No S1 doesn't work for me that's why I use DP. Again, too much unrelated info.

I only care about how DP loses efficiency because many dialogs and sub menus aren't keyboard friendly. That's all. No missing surround in S1 etc. That's not the issue. I have all of that in DP.

The comparison was made to illustrate my point on why working with the keyboard on repetitive tasks is faster than using the mouse.

Nothing wrong with DP. I use it, I prefer against others.
 
You might not have understood what I said here. Of course the provided keyboard shortcuts are configurable. The problem with DP is that a LOT of actions can't be accessed without a mouse which slows things considerably. e.g. you want to change track color? You need to click. You want to edit articulation maps you need to click...

Studio One and Reaper are far better and put a lot of the actions accessible via keyboard or their respective macro editor or action window which opens possibilities for efficient automation of tasks.
You can create a key command for articulation map setup. Or press shift enter and type in whatever you want.

There are no macros, true, but I dont find it any more or less click based than any other daw if you create your own key bindings.
 
You can create a key command for articulation map setup. Or press shift enter and type in whatever you want.

There are no macros, true, but I dont find it any more or less click based than any other daw if you create your own key bindings.
DP feels like the MIDI-focused brother of Samplitude Pro X. It's definitely more click based than something like Studio One, Cakewalk, or Cubase as those DAWs either were designed with a focus on mouse-heavy usage, or got UX do-overs to accommodate this. DP feels like it was designed for computers without a mouse.

Yes, you can navigate the UI, Menus, and Context Menus with a mouse... But, when you're used to dragging Virtual Instruments, FX, etc. around and just dropping them to allow the DAW to do what takes 3 clicks and a menu dive in DP - CONSTANTLY - you feel this.

I don't feel like it is as efficient to use as something like Studio One, unless you learn the keyboard shortcuts and employ them religiously. The issue with that - from a Windows user's perspective - is that even the most basic File/Edit/View/Window Management operations have ported over macOS keyboard shortcuts. So, there is no shortcut. Even the basics are going to be relatively foreign.

I think the average person can pick up Cubase and get by just fine, while having decent-enough productivity. I don't think this is possible with Digital Performer. I think that may work to its disadvantage. The software may frustrate people before they can even start making music with it, while trying a trial version or something... The market is oversaturated with DAWs, these days.

I actually think that's kind of fine, though. Different software is different. I do think Samplitude was easier to use, even with the click and keyboard heavy UX due to the fact that it uses a lot of Standard Windows shortcuts, so a lot of the basics of using the application were relatively intuitive.

Digital Performer on Windows is a culture shock :-P

Using it on a laptop (being on vacation), I think it runs well and it's fine. Some of the text in the UI is very small, though. My eyesight is great, but I can see others completely shrugging it off for Accessibility reasons. The list fonts can be scaled, but there is a LOT of text in the UI that is miniscule. If you're using a laptop screen smaller than 15.6", it will be rough going with that!

The feature set is amazing. The DAW is very deep and equally broad. It's great for video work, and it supports surround without forcing you to upgrade to a $999-3,500 Product SKU (Nuendo, Pro Tools | Ultimate, Sequoia), though it doesn't do Atmos (AFAIK... yet?).

The MIDI Editing is good. The Audio Editing is good. The score editor is better than that of Cubase - but it, sadly, doesn't import MusicXML (though importing the MIDI seems fine; track names and everything carry over, but no articulations will). The Articulation Maps and Editing are better than Cubase, Studio One and Cakewalk. Everything seems great. The packaging is just a bit old-fashioned.

The way tracks are handled is kind of fine. If I think of Instrument Tracks as instruments in the Cubase VST Rack, it makes more sense - or at least removes one layer from consideration. The only gotcha is that the instrument audio outs have to go to "AUX Tracks." "Audio Tracks" won't do.
 
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I'm new to DP. There's a lot that I like about it so far, but I'm also getting hung up on something really simple.

99% of the time when I record MIDI, it drops the first note. I have count-in and metronome enabled for recording. I strongly suspect I'm playing a few milliseconds before recording actually begins. On other DAWs I've used, they recognize that initial note and place it at the very start of recording. DP on the other hand drops it entirely, as if I'd never played it. My solutions are to a) consciously try to play a bit later than the initial downbeat b) if I played it a bit early and it dropped the note, go back and write it in manually.

I've looked through the manual and searched online and haven't found anyone else reporting this sort of thing.

Is there a setting that would get DP to place that first note at 1.1.000 (or wherever I started recording), even if I play the MIDI note just slightly ahead?

DP 11.02 on MacOS 10.15.7, using an m-audio hammer 88 USB keyboard
 
@Pat Maddox

Not sure if I 100% understand what you're doing there, honestly, but one way is to have two bars free before the first note. I always put a couple of empty bars at the start of a piece and change the starting bar (the empty bars) to -1 and 0. That way if you're slightly early, it's there.

In addition, you might try using "Input Quantize" -- IDK if that will help or not but it's available.
 
I'd like to be able to use punch recording for the specific measures I'm working on, and not always have to start recording a measure early. REAPER will recognize that first note even if the note on comes just a bit ahead of the punch-in point. Maybe DP can't do that though, and I'll just have to start recording earlier than I want.

Something is definitely weird though, because sometimes it will throw the first note into the future. In the attached screenshot, the second clip (~bar 30) is a super short version of the first note I played.

Here's a video demonstrating the behavior. The second time I record in DP11, I intentionally play a bit early - and you can see that it creates a clip in the future. In the Reaper example, the "thunk" at the beginning is when I strike the keyboard early - and Reaper doesn't actually even play the note until recording begins. This weird behavior is definitely a thing to send to tech support. I'm just not sure if DP11 can even do the thing where it records the note even if it plays early. I haven't seen anyone else online report this, so either it can't do that and nobody cares, or it doesn't drop the first note on other people.

 

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@Pat Maddox

Not sure if I 100% understand what you're doing there, honestly, but one way is to have two bars free before the first note. I always put a couple of empty bars at the start of a piece and change the starting bar (the empty bars) to -1 and 0. That way if you're slightly early, it's there.

In addition, you might try using "Input Quantize" -- IDK if that will help or not but it's available.
I thought this was fairly standard, so that one can set controller and such at the beginning of the sequence. I remember watching a Guy Michelmore video about this a while back, when he was using DP, and I've been doing it ever since - regardless of what DAW I was using.
 
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