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Spitfire Westworld competition

Hahahaha did you bring enough thesauri for the whole class?

Anyway, "competitions are not particularly good indicators of future success nor of current cultural consequence."

No duh. Whoever wins this thing isn't going to be hired as Ramin's replacement, and probably not as his assistant or even his tea boy. But everybody gets to take a swing at a real scene from a real HBO show (and a good one at that). Plus, the winner gets a drive-full of Spitfire libraries, so that's pretty cool.

And maybe, just maaaayyyyybeeee someone involved in reviewing the submissions will hear something that sticks in their mind and someday they might be looking for some music and think, "I wonder what ever happened to that dude that won the Westworld contest?" Or, maybe someone out there, someone completely uninvolved in the reviewing process, will be watching the submissions on YouTube and think, "Dang there's some decent stuff in there. I like some of these that didn't even make the final six better than the winners. I'm gonna bookmark some of these so I can find them if I can ever get this tv series off the ground." Cut to X years later....

There is an element of "throwing spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks" to this, both for the submitters and the reviewers, but that's what the whole world of selecting music / composers for any film or tv project is like. When a music supervisor / music editor is helping the producers / directors "find the right tone" for a production and then build a temp score for a film or pilot episode, they're scrolling through so much freakin' music you wouldn't believe it. Sitting in the edit bay just going, "no, no, no, no, no.... wait, go back one. Hmmmmm.... maybe." Pulling scores from everything from "A League of Their Own" to "Zyzzyx Road" (google it). And, these days, scrolling though YouTube / SoundCloud etc. So why not be one of the pieces of spaghetti on top of the plate, right next to the meatball? Otherwise you might not get thrown at the wall.

Even if the winning submission is bonkers great, right on the money, totally perfect for the next big series on HBO or whatever, there's going to be such a massive vetting process in between "I love this person, get 'em on the phone NOW!" and "I'm feeling like they've got what it takes, let's hire 'em."

Does the winner have great ideas, the personality and communication skills to verbalize the abstract and carry on meaningful discussions with the producers, AND command of the instruments / production / mixing along with the ability to deal with the logistics and intricacies of actually delivering the material in a form and format that is digestible in the production's workflow, along with the infrastructure and team to actually pull off gig X on a week-to-week schedule?

Or are they just someone who got it right once?

But hey, getting it right once is the first step - and without that, there will be no second step.

Or third through thousandth steps (which consist of all of the above PLUS just plain old getting it right a thousand more times).

In the end, it's not deciding whether you want to donate a kidney to a stranger. It's just a couple days of having fun making some hopefully cool music (which in theory all of us would be doing anyway), and maybe getting some free sample libraries. That should be enough.

Nobody's curing rocket cancer here - it's just some background music for a little light entertainment. Nothing to stress out over.

God damn it man. Another great post. Something tells me you may have done a bit of scoring yourself. :laugh:
 
By the way, the fact that you are putting your entry on YouTube publishes it. As of that date. Yes, it is demonitized because of the HBO content on the screen. BUT, if you ever have to go to court, it is out there with an upload date and everything. Just saying.
 
Hahahaha did you bring enough thesauri for the whole class?

Anyway, "competitions are not particularly good indicators of future success nor of current cultural consequence."

No duh. Whoever wins this thing isn't going to be hired as Ramin's replacement, and probably not as his assistant or even his tea boy. But everybody gets to take a swing at a real scene from a real HBO show (and a good one at that). Plus, the winner gets a drive-full of Spitfire libraries, so that's pretty cool.

And maybe, just maaaayyyyybeeee someone involved in reviewing the submissions will hear something that sticks in their mind and someday they might be looking for some music and think, "I wonder what ever happened to that dude that won the Westworld contest?" Or, maybe someone out there, someone completely uninvolved in the reviewing process, will be watching the submissions on YouTube and think, "Dang there's some decent stuff in there. I like some of these that didn't even make the final six better than the winners. I'm gonna bookmark some of these so I can find them if I can ever get this tv series off the ground." Cut to X years later....

There is an element of "throwing spaghetti at the wall and see if it sticks" to this, both for the submitters and the reviewers, but that's what the whole world of selecting music / composers for any film or tv project is like. When a music supervisor / music editor is helping the producers / directors "find the right tone" for a production and then build a temp score for a film or pilot episode, they're scrolling through so much freakin' music you wouldn't believe it. Sitting in the edit bay just going, "no, no, no, no, no.... wait, go back one. Hmmmmm.... maybe." Pulling scores from everything from "A League of Their Own" to "Zyzzyx Road" (google it). And, these days, scrolling though YouTube / SoundCloud etc. So why not be one of the pieces of spaghetti on top of the plate, right next to the meatball? Otherwise you might not get thrown at the wall.

Even if the winning submission is bonkers great, right on the money, totally perfect for the next big series on HBO or whatever, there's going to be such a massive vetting process in between "I love this person, get 'em on the phone NOW!" and "I'm feeling like they've got what it takes, let's hire 'em."

Does the winner have great ideas, the personality and communication skills to verbalize the abstract and carry on meaningful discussions with the producers, AND command of the instruments / production / mixing along with the ability to deal with the logistics and intricacies of actually delivering the material in a form and format that is digestible in the production's workflow, along with the infrastructure and team to actually pull off gig X on a week-to-week schedule?

Or are they just someone who got it right once?

But hey, getting it right once is the first step - and without that, there will be no second step.

Or third through thousandth steps (which consist of all of the above PLUS just plain old getting it right a thousand more times).

In the end, it's not deciding whether you want to donate a kidney to a stranger. It's just a couple days of having fun making some hopefully cool music (which in theory all of us would be doing anyway), and maybe getting some free sample libraries. That should be enough.

Nobody's curing rocket cancer here - it's just some background music for a little light entertainment. Nothing to stress out over.

possibly one of the best posts i've ever seen on this site?
 
If there is like 100,000 enteries, how are they even gonna view them all ?!

Unpaid interns! It's a great opportunity for someone who wants to get into the music supervisor world!

Only half kidding. But, yeah, if there are thousands of entries then you can bet there will be a first tier of filtration somehow, where someone other than HBO execs and Ramin himself will be grinding through the submissions, rating them with 1-5 stars as you would rate your Uber driver, and maybe categorizing them as "orchestral vs electronic, thematic vs sound-design-y, overt vs subtle, forceful vs gentle" etc. Or maybe it's not even that sophisticated - it might be as simple as "Oh Christ, look how many there are....whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 50 so we can deal, keeping only that which does not suck ass."

As to wasting time / not getting paid / working for free / etc. - I feel like there's multiple phases one passes through on the way to... wherever:

- Phase One (just starting / haven't started yet status) = I'll do any ridiculous amount of work for no money if my brain fools me into thinking it represents some shred of opportunity. Score an indie film shot on an iPhone by a 15-year old? I'm down. Quit my job and live in my car while spending two months composing music for a student film for zero dollars just in case that student goes on to be the next Nolan? Sounds reasonable. (aka the "Lemme at it" phase.)

- Phase Two (I'm a pro and it's beneath me to work for free status) = Now I've made some money at this stuff, and I feel like if I don't assign value to my time and work, then that gives everyone else the justification not to assign value to my time and work. Or, I quit my damn job for this, and I got assistants to pay and plugins to buy, so I don't / can't do anything for free. Frack you, pay me. (aka the "L'Oreal: Because I'm Worth It" phase.)

- Phase Three (up and running status) = OMG I'm doing this, I'm really doing this! So I can take a few days to grind out a few audition cues for a project I really want while my assistant deals with the day-to-day on my tv series, and not expect or need to be paid for the time I spend doing the audition cues. If they like 'em, maybe I'll make the final three. If not, screw it - stick 'em in the "to be pillaged" pile and maybe we can repurpose them if we get in a pinch someday. (aka the "Sure no problem" phase.)

- Phase Four (baller status) = I got money coming in the mail so fast I don't even read the statements, I just look at end-of-the-year pie charts my business managers create that summarize which projects / territories / networks are generating the most fees and royalties. Now money has become almost meaningless in the sense that I don't count how much goes out vs how much comes in on a per-project basis, since the amount coming in is always bigger than the amount going out. So I'll spend out of pocket to hire a full orchestra just to do audition cues, even if that means I can't really pillage those demos for other projects because now there's external players on the tracks and I can't just use the recordings they played on for whatever, whenever, without getting them on paper and paid for that re-purposing. Not right (and not legal) to take buy-out performances done for an audition cue and use them later on a paid score that's going on networks or in theaters. Gotta get 'em on paper. But no biggie, spend the money, make the recordings, and if we don't get the gig we'll file 'em away in the "idea pile" that maybe we use on a reel or something, but never on a paid, "for air" thing. (aka "A/B/C List" phase.)

- Phase Five (artiste status) = Money is meaningless to me, and 'twas ever thus. I don't even look at the pie charts anymore - maybe I never did, or maybe there aren't any damn pie charts anyway. Maybe money doesn't matter because I made / inherited zillions elsewhere, maybe it doesn't matter because I live on a glacier in Iceland and reindeer milk is cheap, or maybe it doesn't matter because I do my scores on $50 worth of bowed wineglasses and an iMac (or all of the above). I'll spend six months writing music based on a five-minute conversation about a project that a producer/director is only thinking about maybe doing someday, or writing a whole album / suite / concerto based on a book I liked, just because I liked the book, and not strictly "just in case someone thinks about turning it into a movie someday". (aka "Brian Eno" phase.)

I almost think of those phases as if they were the years of college - like "freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, doctorate" levels. In all but the second (sophomore) phase, getting paid for a demo / audition / submission is just not part of the equation. So wanting / asking / demanding to get paid for a submission, or considering unpaid auditioning as not worth your time, feels kind of sophomoric, and quite possibly the people dishing out the auditions might think of it this way as well. Their view is like, "No way can we pay five or ten composers a demo fee, and why should we? Anybody worth a crap is going to have the ability to demo for this thing on their own dime without having to sell a kidney or cramp their style. The fact that they're even being considered means they've already made the cut to some degree, they should be happy!" Maybe when they're down to the final two and it's going to cost some big bucks to record both Silvestri and Shore's takes on the big superhero theme so they can compare the real thing and not mockups (if those guys even DO mockups anymore?), then the studio will shell out - but now we're talking about the rarefied atmosphere at the top of the mountain where mortals fear to tread.

I had a situation where I spent about a week doing a set of three audition cues for a feature, and lost out on the gig to someone who spent their own cash to record a real orchestra just for the audition! Yes, that composer tacked those recordings onto the end of their weekly full-orchestra sessions for a big cable series they were on the third season of, but still, they had to pay for those extra few hours -it's not like the music contractor would let that slide for free, and at that level it's not like he could pretend those cues were for the show that was on the books and "oops, we didn't use them for the show so I used them as a demo for something else". That ain't gonna fly. So I wasn't surprised or disappointed when my one-week all-in-the-box audition didn't beat out a full orchestra. And I didn't get the gig. No biggie. In the end that composer spent WAY more doing the actual score with a full orchestra than the fee they received. I am friends with one of the producers who told me that, yeah, in the end the composer was upside-down on that gig for hundreds of thousands, but felt it was a fun project and a good opportunity and was therefore worth it to him (although he didn't do the sequel.) There was a score budget of X and it was all-in, no wiggle room, take it or leave it (or at least that's what they told my people). I figured I could do it in the box for X, or with a real non-union orchestra in somewhere like Prague for 2X, and dude said he could do it in town with a real orchestra for X and eat the overage, so.... duh. That's a no brainer for the producers. Plus his music was probably "more right" for the film than mine was anyway! (I watched the movie when it came out and the score was fine, nothing world-shattering, nothing too special really, but fine in an ordinary way. Dude probably busted it out without breaking a sweat.) My producer friend was like, "Sorry bro, it wasn't entirely my call to make, and dude's demo was killer with a full orchestra and the director fell in love, so I waved your flag but in the end I couldn't overrule cause I don't have the power." And of course my genuine response was, "It ain't a thang, totally get it, still love you bro. Next one." And we're still buds.

But I digress.

The process of doing something that didn't work out adds to the knowledge pile, even if it's only to shine a light on why you didn't get that gig once you hear what they wound up going with - or if it makes you think, "Well crap. Never doing THAT again..."

All experience is good experience - even bad experiences. If that makes sense.
 
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whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 100 by Thursday, keeping only that which does not suck ass."
Not saying anything about whoever wants to submit I have judged music competitions: it's really easy within a small amount of time to determine whether the entry does 'suck ass'. If in doubt they can send it through to the next tier.
 
Unpaid interns! It's a great opportunity for someone who wants to get into the music supervisor world!

Only half kidding. But, yeah, if there are thousands of entries then you can bet there will be a first tier of filtration somehow, where someone other than HBO execs and Ramin himself will be grinding through the submissions, rating them with 1-5 stars as you would rate your Uber driver, and maybe categorizing them as "orchestral vs electronic, thematic vs sound-design-y, overt vs subtle, forceful vs gentle" etc. Or maybe it's not even that sophisticated - it might be as simple as "Oh Christ, look how many there are....whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 100 by Thursday, keeping only that which does not suck ass."

Shoot, and I had this vision of JJ Abrams listening to entry #2,483, by David Kudell, and saying, "Wait, hold on....this is the one! Get this guy on the phone! Did we sign John Williams to the next Star Wars yet? Is it too late to back out?!"
 
Also, why do futuristic cars always look so ugly?
Hroznej smích   *3*

Quit living in the past man...don't you know style once you've seen it.

Future.jpg

Plus, everyone knows there will be no cars in the future. The only way to get to your destination will be human canons.
 
I am genuinely surprised by the amount of negativity on this forum, both from industry veterans and newcomers alike. On the one hand, the newcomers fear their music will be "stolen" which we all know is so unlikely, and yet industry veterans chime in with very good posts, but it all seems so condescending and preachy.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I'd like to see everyone in the music world be a little lighter about this whole thing, and a little more kind in their responses in general. There's so much snark in here that it's kind of disturbing, and no wonder people have been run off this board before. I can only imagine the real world snark of Hollywood is 10x worse than what we find on here, which seems sad. Because at the end of the day, it's just music. The egos seem to run out of control, especially on a forum.

My advice to anyone entering the contest: don't expect to win, but rather use it to compose some hopefully cool music to a cool scene. That's it.
 
My advice to anyone entering the contest: don't expect to win, but rather use it to compose some hopefully cool music to a cool scene. That's it.

Well said. It seems so obvious to me, but apparently there a lot of overthinking going on here.
 
I am genuinely surprised by the amount of negativity on this forum, both from industry veterans and newcomers alike. On the one hand, the newcomers fear their music will be "stolen" which we all know is so unlikely, and yet industry veterans chime in with very good posts, but it all seems so condescending and preachy.

Maybe I'm alone on this, but I'd like to see everyone in the music world be a little lighter about this whole thing, and a little more kind in their responses in general. There's so much snark in here that it's kind of disturbing, and no wonder people have been run off this board before. I can only imagine the real world snark of Hollywood is 10x worse than what we find on here, which seems sad. Because at the end of the day, it's just music. The egos seem to run out of control, especially on a forum.

My advice to anyone entering the contest: don't expect to win, but rather use it to compose some hopefully cool music to a cool scene. That's it.
We are f**ing talking apes, what do you expect from our species?
Hroznej smích   *3*
 
Unpaid interns! It's a great opportunity for someone who wants to get into the music supervisor world!

Only half kidding. But, yeah, if there are thousands of entries then you can bet there will be a first tier of filtration somehow, where someone other than HBO execs and Ramin himself will be grinding through the submissions, rating them with 1-5 stars as you would rate your Uber driver, and maybe categorizing them as "orchestral vs electronic, thematic vs sound-design-y, overt vs subtle, forceful vs gentle" etc. Or maybe it's not even that sophisticated - it might be as simple as "Oh Christ, look how many there are....whittle this pile down from 1,000 to 50 so we can deal, keeping only that which does not suck ass."

As to wasting time / not getting paid / working for free / etc. - I feel like there's multiple phases one passes through on the way to... wherever:

- Phase One (just starting / haven't started yet status) = I'll do any ridiculous amount of work for no money if my brain fools me into thinking it represents some shred of opportunity. Score an indie film shot on an iPhone by a 15-year old? I'm down. Quit my job and live in my car while spending two months composing music for a student film for zero dollars just in case that student goes on to be the next Nolan? Sounds reasonable. (aka the "Lemme at it" phase.)

- Phase Two (I'm a pro and it's beneath me to work for free status) = Now I've made some money at this stuff, and I feel like if I don't assign value to my time and work, then that gives everyone else the justification not to assign value to my time and work. Or, I quit my damn job for this, and I got assistants to pay and plugins to buy, so I don't / can't do anything for free. Frack you, pay me. (aka the "L'Oreal: Because I'm Worth It" phase.)

- Phase Three (up and running status) = OMG I'm doing this, I'm really doing this! So I can take a few days to grind out a few audition cues for a project I really want while my assistant deals with the day-to-day on my tv series, and not expect or need to be paid for the time I spend doing the audition cues. If they like 'em, maybe I'll make the final three. If not, screw it - stick 'em in the "to be pillaged" pile and maybe we can repurpose them if we get in a pinch someday. (aka the "Sure no problem" phase.)

- Phase Four (baller status) = I got money coming in the mail so fast I don't even read the statements, I just look at end-of-the-year pie charts my business managers create that summarize which projects / territories / networks are generating the most fees and royalties. Now money has become almost meaningless in the sense that I don't count how much goes out vs how much comes in on a per-project basis, since the amount coming in is always bigger than the amount going out. So I'll spend out of pocket to hire a full orchestra just to do audition cues, even if that means I can't really pillage those demos for other projects because now there's external players on the tracks and I can't just use the recordings they played on for whatever, whenever, without getting them on paper and paid for that re-purposing. Not right (and not legal) to take buy-out performances done for an audition cue and use them later on a paid score that's going on networks or in theaters. Gotta get 'em on paper. But no biggie, spend the money, make the recordings, and if we don't get the gig we'll file 'em away in the "idea pile" that maybe we use on a reel or something, but never on a paid, "for air" thing. (aka "A/B/C List" phase.)

- Phase Five (artiste status) = Money is meaningless to me, and 'twas ever thus. I don't even look at the pie charts anymore - maybe I never did, or maybe there aren't any damn pie charts anyway. Maybe money doesn't matter because I made / inherited zillions elsewhere, maybe it doesn't matter because I live on a glacier in Iceland and reindeer milk is cheap, or maybe it doesn't matter because I do my scores on $50 worth of bowed wineglasses and an iMac (or all of the above). I'll spend six months writing music based on a five-minute conversation about a project that a producer/director is only thinking about maybe doing someday, or writing a whole album / suite / concerto based on a book I liked, just because I liked the book, and not strictly "just in case someone thinks about turning it into a movie someday". (aka "Brian Eno" phase.)

I almost think of those phases as if they were the years of college - like "freshman, sophomore, junior, senior, doctorate" levels. In all but the second (sophomore) phase, getting paid for a demo / audition / submission is just not part of the equation. So wanting / asking / demanding to get paid for a submission, or considering unpaid auditioning as not worth your time, feels kind of sophomoric, and quite possibly the people dishing out the auditions might think of it this way as well. Their view is like, "No way can we pay five or ten composers a demo fee, and why should we? Anybody worth a crap is going to have the ability to demo for this thing on their own dime without having to sell a kidney or cramp their style. The fact that they're even being considered means they've already made the cut to some degree, they should be happy!" Maybe when they're down to the final two and it's going to cost some big bucks to record both Silvestri and Shore's takes on the big superhero theme so they can compare the real thing and not mockups (if those guys even DO mockups anymore?), then the studio will shell out - but now we're talking about the rarefied atmosphere at the top of the mountain where mortals fear to tread.

I had a situation where I spent about a week doing a set of three audition cues for a feature, and lost out on the gig to someone who spent their own cash to record a real orchestra just for the audition! Yes, that composer tacked those recordings onto the end of their weekly full-orchestra sessions for a big cable series they were on the third season of, but still, they had to pay for those extra few hours -it's not like the music contractor would let that slide for free, and at that level it's not like he could pretend those cues were for the show that was on the books and "oops, we didn't use them for the show so I used them as a demo for something else". That ain't gonna fly. So I wasn't surprised or disappointed when my one-week all-in-the-box audition didn't beat out a full orchestra. And I didn't get the gig. No biggie. In the end that composer spent WAY more doing the actual score with a full orchestra than the fee they received. I am friends with one of the producers who told me that, yeah, in the end the composer was upside-down on that gig for hundreds of thousands, but felt it was a fun project and a good opportunity and was therefore worth it to him (although he didn't do the sequel.) There was a score budget of X and it was all-in, no wiggle room, take it or leave it (or at least that's what they told my people). I figured I could do it in the box for X, or with a real non-union orchestra in somewhere like Prague for 2X, and dude said he could do it in town with a real orchestra for X and eat the overage, so.... duh. That's a no brainer for the producers. Plus his music was probably "more right" for the film than mine was anyway! (I watched the movie when it came out and the score was fine, nothing world-shattering, nothing too special really, but fine in an ordinary way. Dude probably busted it out without breaking a sweat.) My producer friend was like, "Sorry bro, it wasn't entirely my call to make, and dude's demo was killer with a full orchestra and the director fell in love, so I waved your flag but in the end I couldn't overrule cause I don't have the power." And of course my genuine response was, "It ain't a thang, totally get it, still love you bro. Next one." And we're still buds.

But I digress.

The process of doing something that didn't work out adds to the knowledge pile, even if it's only to shine a light on why you didn't get that gig once you hear what they wound up going with - or if it makes you think, "Well crap. Never doing THAT again..."

All experience is good experience - even bad experiences. If that makes sense.


They might first randomly throw 90% of them in the bin.

That gets rid of the unlucky ones.

:P
 
There's so much snark in here that it's kind of disturbing, and no wonder people have been run off this board before. I can only imagine the real world snark of Hollywood is 10x worse than what we find on here, which seems sad. Because at the end of the day, it's just music. The egos seem to run out of control, especially on a forum.

Maybe I'm completely upside-down on my interpretation of your post, but I feel like I mostly run into snark and skeptical viewpoints on forums, and rarely in the outside world. Sure, there's some element of world-weary realism in the back-lot bungalow offices in Hollywood, but I feel like it's generally a more optimistic, free, and fun attitude than you find on threads like this one. Like, it's not as cut-throat, "steal his ideas and help me bury his body" as threads like this would seem to indicate - and even if some parts of it are like that, it's possible to avoid the sucky bits. It is (mostly) about music and fun and creativity and not wanting to work with arseholes (or maybe I've just managed to avoid those sucky bits). And you're right, it's just music. Supposed to be fun.
 
Just started yesterday and as this is my very first attempt at scoring to picture, I'm hooked. This is so much fun and I wish there were more opportunities like this, it's great to have no music and only effects, I can clearly hear how my music has impact. It's a great learning experience and I can't wait to download nucleus tomorrow and start implementing it.
 
I've posted this topic on Spitfire's Facebook page and in a direct message to them... no reply/comment from anyone, so this is my last attempt. Apologies for not having entered a scoring contest before... or perhaps I'm overthinking it. Here goes...

How does any film composer even begin to write music for a scene without direction or notes from the Director or Producers? I'm inquiring because in my humble opinion, the music MUST serve the STORY. However, as I hope we all could agree, what one sees on the screen with regards to story is largely subjective -- but here is why Director's notes during a spotting session are so critical -- the Director explains EXACTLY what aspect(s) of the story is moving forward in the scene and how music can supplement and enhance that intent.

My point is for this competition, without Director's notes, how we can know what to score? Are we to simply guess and just hope we've interpreted the scene with the same intent as the Director?
 
At first I was thinking similar @TravB , some info is always beneficial to help approach. At first, I was wondering if the scoring should be in context of the show, should themes, instrument choice, sound design, etc all adhere to what was already there to create consistency with the show or is it to produce something absolutely unique to our own and produce a personal palette?

...I think I was over-thinking it. So like some I've seen on Youtube I'm just gonna add a few hip hop beats and drown the dialogue in bass.

:P
 
Are we to simply guess and just hope we've interpreted the scene with the same intent as the Director?

Yes. Exactly.

That's part of the process, part of what makes a director and a composer feel like "kindred souls" who share a similar outlook and can have a productive creative relationship. When they feel like you get it without being explicitly instructed what to do. Best-case scenario is when they can describe how they want the score to relate to the whole arc of the story, slowly revealing more and more of the central theme while nodding to the various characters and plot lines, and refer to other music in terms of the emotions they evoke. Worst-case scenario is when they don't have the abstract verbal skills to describe what they need much beyond, "I'll know it when I hear it."

I rarely have hours-long conversations about how to approach a scene, and usually there's not even all that much back-and-forth over the course of days and multiple revisions etc. That's when it starts to feel like pulling teeth, like maybe this composer just doesn't get it, like maybe we got the wrong guy.

An example of a one-minute conversation that worked: A sentimental scene, tender emotions, might even be a final goodbye before one character dies or goes away forever, can't tell because I haven't seen the whole film yet. No idea what's going on, it's just an audition cue. Temp score is in place and sounds lovey-dovey, but my first impression that I blurted out to the director was, "This temp makes it seem like these two are in love, but that feels wrong. Like it needs tender emotion but more like they're brother and sister saying goodbye for the last time or something, not like they're going to get married or whatever." Director's response: "Exactly. See what you can come up with." Done. Took less than a minute to talk that one out.

An example of a conversation that lasted a week and didn't work: Thriller / tension film, people double-crossing each other, lying, sneaking around, the whole works. But subdued and tense, not epic war-drum beat-downs, and with a high-tech sheen because they're hacking computers, swiping fake ID badges to gain entry to restricted facilities, etc. So I take a swing at it - nope, it's "too energetic and percussive and pointy somehow". Okay, take another swing. Nope, this one "still feels too active or bright or something". Okay, damn... third swing. Now the director's running out of words to describe how much he doesn't like what I'm laying down, it's just "Still not the right vibe, man, I dunno...".

In desperation, sitting with the director in the edit suite, I say, "Sounds like what you mean is something like this:" and I start singing and mouth-beat-boxing along to picture, basically imitating James Newton-Howard's amazing score to "Michael Clayton" - those tension cues as he's driving upstate. I say, "You know, kind of a Michael Clayton vibe?" And the director goes, "Exactly! That's what we had in the temp!".

But I had never heard that temp. Due to them previously hiring a composer who I was supposed to be replacing, the only temp I had ever heard was that composer's failed attempt - and nobody ever remembered to play me their original temp, the one that the network had loved, the one that helped the pilot get a series order! All I had heard was the "wrong" music from the guy they wanted to fire, and I was operating under the assumption that this was as close to "right" as they had ever gotten, when in fact it was even further away from "right" than their original temp had been! When the post supervisor found out that the editor and show runner never went all the way back to the original temp (that everyone had loved) she was beside herself - to her this was a total failure of production logistics! Aka: how not to do it. And nobody thought to mention "Michael Clayton" to me, or had the communication skills to describe the desired result as "muted, subdued, and subtle, but still tense and propelling the scene forward." - which is how I described what I was about to start singing in the edit suite, that made the director say, "Yeah, that's what it needs. What would that sound like?" and so I started beat-boxing the Michael Clayton cues.

When I finally got to "So... like a Michael Clayton vibe?" I was like, "That's all you needed to say. Just say the words Michael Clayton and I know exactly what you mean." (Not that I could actually pull it off, but at least I'd have known what they meant.) In the end, it was such a struggle to get to that point that I was like, "Man, it shouldn't take us four tries to get it right, maybe I'm not your guy." And as it turned out I was not their guy - maybe not entirely because I had the wrong music, but also partially because they had a hard time knowing / deciding / explaining what they wanted, and we didn't have enough in common that I was able to read their minds well enough.

So, being able to read the minds of the directors / producers / writers / actors and "get the vibe" even if you don't know the entire arc of the story and where a given scene fits into that arc, is going to be a part of the skill set. You won't always, or even often, be operating off your own partially-informed guesses - but it will happen eventually. Maybe it will be in season five of a series, as it's winding down, show runners are being swapped in and out, and people are looking exhausted and operating on auto-pilot - and maybe it will be on a scene that nobody's really paying all that much attention to because they have bigger fires to extinguish. But when you get it right with little to no direction, and the show runner says, "Wow, you killed it on that scene. Really made it work better and helped it feel as important as it should have been. Sorry we kind of glossed over that one in the spotting session, good job though." - that's when good guessing becomes a valuable skill.
 
Oh man, I forgot about that Michael Clayton score! It’s all I listened to for about four months after it came out. I always marvelled at how “neutral” it was (don’t know how else to say it) and yet impactful.
 
Oh man, I forgot about that Michael Clayton score! It’s all I listened to for about four months after it came out. I always marvelled at how “neutral” it was (don’t know how else to say it) and yet impactful.

It's so good. That big swell as Tom Wilkinson is dazed and wandering in Time Square, and then he sees the uNorth video playing and figures out what he's going to do, and then the music swells and builds, but somehow just stays on a single chord with no apparent "note-on events" but still gets bigger and bigger, only to stop exactly on the cut to the Keyserson's farm, but with just a tiny bit of reverb ringing out over the cut - perfect. And those tension cues with the underwater filtered drums.... Damn that JNH!

I've watched that damn movie so many times I could probably do the ADR for every character from memory. My wife is like, "Ugh. Michael Clayton? AGAIN?!?!"

Another similar movie, with a similarly minimal approach to the score is Syriania - also starring Clooney, but with a score by Alexandre Desplat. So simple, so good. The build-up to the terrorist boat explosion is similar to the Times Square scene in Clayton, and the way the sound fades out, being gradually replaced by a super-gentle score swell, only to cut to a blank white screen on the explosion, is so good - and they ripped it off with an accuracy of 90% on the finale of Homeland. Couldn't help themselves I guess. Can't say I blame 'em.
 
Charlie-your posts in this thread are fabulous and I’ve enjoyed every one of them. Let me take issue with one thing.

When you did your demos for that big show and ended up losing out to the guy who put up the cash for the orchestra, you had an in-a “producer friend.” It wasn’t a cold call styled competition with EVERY WRITER IN THE WORLD. There’s a huge difference. If i have a personal/business connection for a gig, I’ll knock myself out and work a stupid amount of time gratis, because it’s a real, day to day working composer shot. So if you think my approach is sophomoric, ok, but there’s some methodology behind it.

On the other hand, you’re Charlie Clouser and I ain’t, so if y’all want to hit Charlie’s heights, best listen to him. :)

Edit-I loved Michael Clayton and I thought Syriana was the of the best films I’ve ever seen. Why it isn’t hailed constantly as thoughtful and brilliant, I just don’t get it.
 
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