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Give Spitfire a chance? Or not?... Samplecast review now LIVE

I appreciate all this dialogue personally. Because all it will do is ultimately make the product better.

DJ, thanks always for your reviews, because I do feel you are the one person who is going to be brutally honest about a product (not that others aren't, but if you paid for it personally, it does open up more doors of honesty). I don't always agree with you, or more so there are things that might annoy you that don't really bother me ... but man oh man, have I ever benefited from watching you interact with it.

So I'm sure it might be disheartening to lose a NFR relationship ... but gotta say, I would choose you reviewing a product you paid for any day of the week. (That isn't a slam on Samplecast either ... I appreciate and watch those reviews too!!).

Funny, although people quote you as being negative about HZ Strings, I actually bought this BECAUSE of your review! Because you did brag at times over the lushness of sounds, and I just really liked what I heard. Maybe I only watched 2 hours out of 5, but I thought you were fair and often complementary, while pointing out things that were odd or bad.

As an aside (non DJ focus), it must actually be quite good for Spitfire. Because look at ALL the posts in this, and like 4 other threads talking about this ONE library. Sure, it may not all be good ... but you can't PAY for that kind of advertisement and publicity! Weeks before ... weeks after ... and pull down "Latest Posts" here, and most likely 2-3 different threads of HZ String posts will be in the top 10.

If I was Spitfire, I wouldn't worry about the small debates. Just dig in, listen to what customers are saying, and fix it ... or improve it. Be proactive and just take it to the next level now. Silence the critics, not with arguments, but with taking a REALLY good product, and making it great.

Spitfire is a great company. I believe they listen to their customers and will fix any such issues over time.
 
If I am ignorant to something, then usually the product didn't make that feature/function clear enough

HA! that doesn't make any sense. No Daniel, you can't blame others for your lack of comprehension. It almost feels like you are trying to spread FUD. Maybe you didn't like that Spitfire stopped giving you NFRs or Paul ignored your attempt to create more controversy. The Jerry Springer Show, VI edition. It’s your name at the top for weeks, thousands of views and that sweet exposure. I understand their choice to ignore you, after all, it's easy to see that behind that "I'm only trying to help and happy to be proven wrong" banner, there's a guy who likes to repeat himself like an echo chamber over and over and over until the other part gives up in exhaustion. Here's an example: even though Spitfire was 100% transparent and gave us a manual with all articulations, demos and walkthroughs weeks prior to the release, still you insistently questioned the sound of the library. Your own misconception of the “Hans Zimmer brand”, as you like to call. Pages and pages of “where’s Pirates, Batman and Gladiator?” to the point that the man himself had to step in and basically say “dude, you are tripping balls”. Not fair to put him in such a delicate and vulnerable spot, like he was some sort of one trick pony.

If you really want to help this community, you should be the first to set the example and show how important is to know your virtual instruments. This is not a toy, this is a professional tool. I know it’s your channel, your viewers, but if you want to be taken seriously out of your safe space, consider behaving like a professional. And by that I don’t mean the potty mouth thing, I couldn’t care less about that, I mean preparing yourself better instead of taking the easy way out by saying you are recreating the average Joe experience. There’s nothing wrong about reading the fucking manual, it’s there for a reason. I bet if they saw Daniel James engaged in extracting the most out of the product they paid $800 for, your 5 hour video would be much more useful than it actually is. Again, you have a great opportunity to educate people, so why not do it?

they can make sure to make things more obvious... its like in video games people didn't know where to go sometimes so developers started putting lights over door that you can enter, you can always imply to a user how something works in various ways

Fair enough, but how about practicing what you preach? For example, you kept questioning and ridiculing Spitfire's choice of including a "bottle mic position", it was a recurring gag during your review. The thing is, Spitfire did include an info box at the bottom left corner explaining exactly what the bottle mic does and either you chose to ignore it, or you were too focused in bashing the library for the sake of it.

While I agree that a $800 product tested for 5 months (according to Paul) shouldn't have those nasty legatos or Win 10 breaking bugs, I think you are blowing issues way out of proportion. Shit happens, you should know better as a dev yourself. And the mob mentality here is just sad to see.
 
I think Paul is being massively restrained. Sorry to swim against the tide.

I agree. Paul is very restrained, considering.

Even HZ himself has come on and more or less told DJ he's wrong with the approach he took. I agree -- DJ missed the boat. This library is very subtle, very complicated to get to understand well, and yet we see DJ's hasty, rushed effort to thrash around (interminably) and decide that, because it doesn't meet his preconceived notions, it's somehow misleading / not "really" Hans.

To keep posting the same negative comments over and over in every thread on v.i. that mentions this library in my view is troll-ish. Especially when the number one composer in the industry has (graciously) told you that you off base.

I'm less gracious maybe, but after spending some days paddling around in this library and realising that, even after days of working with it, I'm just getting to understand it a bit, I definitely think that you have completely missed the point. I've been using it in a project for which it is actually perfect -- wish I'd had it from the start.

Among other things, having the different mic positions -- and the large number of alternative sections -- is magic. As is the ability to float the softer articulations behind the regular ones.

As Hans has written, the advantage of samples is to be able to do something you can't do with a live orchestra alone. I think this library fulfills that in some very interesting ways. It does not have an exhaustive set of articulations, but really, I don't think I need that. We have those already; this is something special and allows a lot of innovation.

Your review makes you sound like a Johnny One Note composer who thinks "epic" comes from a single finger on a single sound. It doesn't. It comes from a subtle approach to the whole engine that is the orchestra and samples and technology.

Just because you have the best players in Los Angeles or London, it isn't necessarily going to be John Williams or Mahler's 5th. You have all this pesky orchestration and knowledge you have to have to get there.

Similarly, thrashing through, within one day of release, a library this elaborate is risky and hasty. Then you adopt the tactics I remember from Hollywood Strings, insinuating that any contradiction represents a personal attack on you, or that there is bias, or that you are the one who tells it like it is -- you tell it as you see it and are so overconfident that you think your opinion is the best.

And when called out you retreat and say "but, it's only a first look, not a review." Five and a half hours not a review? Give me a break.

I think the library offers enormous creative potential and range and look forward to using it for a long time. The samples are clean and the controls are easy to figure out even without looking at the manual -- except maybe the volume slider, upper right. Didn't see that at first.

Kind regards,

John
 
HA! that doesn't make any sense. No Daniel, you can't blame others for your lack of comprehension. It almost feels like you are trying to spread FUD. Maybe you didn't like that Spitfire stopped giving you NFRs or Paul ignored your attempt to create more controversy. The Jerry Springer Show, VI edition. It’s your name at the top for weeks, thousands of views and that sweet exposure. I understand their choice to ignore you, after all, it's easy to see that behind that "I'm only trying to help and happy to be proven wrong" banner, there's a guy who likes to repeat himself like an echo chamber over and over and over until the other part gives up in exhaustion. Here's an example: even though Spitfire was 100% transparent and gave us a manual with all articulations, demos and walkthroughs weeks prior to the release, still you insistently questioned the sound of the library. Your own misconception of the “Hans Zimmer brand”, as you like to call. Pages and pages of “where’s Pirates, Batman and Gladiator?” to the point that the man himself had to step in and basically say “dude, you are tripping balls”. Not fair to put him in such a delicate and vulnerable spot, like he was some sort of one trick pony.

If you really want to help this community, you should be the first to set the example and show how important is to know your virtual instruments. This is not a toy, this is a professional tool. I know it’s your channel, your viewers, but if you want to be taken seriously out of your safe space, consider behaving like a professional. And by that I don’t mean the potty mouth thing, I couldn’t care less about that, I mean preparing yourself better instead of taking the easy way out by saying you are recreating the average Joe experience. There’s nothing wrong about reading the fucking manual, it’s there for a reason. I bet if they saw Daniel James engaged in extracting the most out of the product they paid $800 for, your 5 hour video would be much more useful than it actually is. Again, you have a great opportunity to educate people, so why not do it?



Fair enough, but how about practicing what you preach? For example, you kept questioning and ridiculing Spitfire's choice of including a "bottle mic position", it was a recurring gag during your review. The thing is, Spitfire did include an info box at the bottom left corner explaining exactly what the bottle mic does and either you chose to ignore it, or you were too focused in bashing the library for the sake of it.

While I agree that a $800 product tested for 5 months (according to Paul) shouldn't have those nasty legatos or Win 10 breaking bugs, I think you are blowing issues way out of proportion. Shit happens, you should know better as a dev yourself. And the mob mentality here is just sad to see.

To quote from a nice article: https://bokardo.com/principles-of-user-interface-design/

"Clarity is job #1
Clarity is the first and most important job of any interface. To be effective using an interface you've designed, people must be able to recognize what it is, care about why they would use it, understand what the interface is helping them interact with, predict what will happen when they use it, and then successfully interact with it. While there is room for mystery and delayed gratification in interfaces, there is no room for confusion. Clarity inspires confidence and leads to further use. One hundred clear screens is preferable to a single cluttered one."

Also I think you misunderstand what an echo chamber is. Thats when lots of people who all have the same opinion talk about that subject then just agree with each other without a dissenting voice. What you are referencing is my tenacity to make sure what I am saying is not being misrepresented by responding to any post or comment that didn't get what I was saying or implying I said something other than I did. I am just debating the point, I have conseeded on some things (if you care to read) and am trying to find middle ground with everyone involved.

And to your other point no I am not spiteful towards companies that don't send me NFR's, there are many companies who don't want to deal with my honesty but I still talk about their libraries and we have good honest discourse. Something I am all for!

If you really want to have the conversation about brands again send me a PM or go read the pages where I explain all about brands, public perception of them and how they can be interpreted. For example because it was called Hans Zimmer Strings I thought that was going to somehow sound like Hans Zimmer...or at least the Hans Zimmer I know. But I admitted that was my misunderstanding nd going forward I know that Hans Zimmer on Spitfire product doesnt mean it will sound like Hans Zimmer. You see we moved forward on a subject though civil discourse.

Haha haven't you seen me debating here???, haven't you seen me countless times call people and companies out for things I disagree with??? how can that be considered 'retiring to my safe space' ....It sounds like you may have been spending too much time indulging yourself in 'Facebook Political Debates' its all name calling and anger with you isnt it XD

And mate...for this kind of product I am the average Joe....no one who doesnt work in the audio field is impulse buying Hans Zimmer Strings out of the blue. So I am their audience, a composer. There are no composers out there who know every single aspect of every single product they own for their work so to say I am any less professional because I happen to not get every aspect of every library ever delivered to me is a bit of a stretch.

I do know my libraries pretty well, I work without a template and I know what does what. I have done in depth overviews of quite a few libraries by this point so you can see the level to which I dig into them. I also make them so I have a fair idea how they work too. I have spent time looking into and discussing things like UI design, human psychology and the ways people interact with things both visually and sonically...its something of a hobby for me. So knowing how deep I dive into libraries and the things I have learned about the way customers interact with UI's from both a developer and customer side.... I genuinely do believe that if I missed something in one of the many overviews I have done it is more the fault of the UI for not making it clear what I should do to make something work than it is me just being amateur.

Your whole post seems like its coming from pure anger rather than actually wanting to have a rational chat about any of this. There is a thread which is over 20 pages and I have a video of over 5 hours. If you don't get my position by now thats on you mate. If you don't like what I say or the way I do them, don't keep watching me. You really don't have to if it causes you so much angst. Like I say, I am free to do these things how I want to, and I present them as fair open and honest as I can. If you disagree with a point thats fine, but I don't have to agree with your disagreement.

I feel I am doing my bit to help the community! I jump in and help out where its relevant, I do composition livestreams an hours and hours of sample library reviews/vlogs/interviews on Youtube. What are you contributing? because if you are implying I don't care about helping the community you are very wrong mate. Life would be much more relaxing if I didn't care about composing and composers so much xD (I'd definitely sleep more)

Also don't get all aggressive and then scream mob mentality. There are plenty of people on both sides of these healthy debates. Don't start crying victim just to stop people talking.

-DJ
 
I agree. Paul is very restrained, considering.

Oh come on and why is that John? because people didn't like his latest product? I can't find a point where things were so aggressive towards him he had to hold back.

Even HZ himself has come on and more or less told DJ he's wrong with the approach he took. I agree -- DJ missed the boat. This library is very subtle, very complicated to get to understand well, and yet we see DJ's hasty, rushed effort to thrash around (interminably) and decide that, because it doesn't meet his preconceived notions, it's somehow misleading / not "really" Hans.

What was rushed? the bit where I opened the library and went through every sound live for 5 hours, a 5 hour scenario many composers will experience if they buy it? I wanted to share that experience with my live audience and community, Of course it was going to be my first impressions and feelings towards it, not an in depth review....thats why its called a first look. And yeah the library didn't live up to my expectations, a discussion we have had at length....but the good thing about opinions is that we can have them and people can disagree. The world keeps turning.

To keep posting the same negative comments over and over in every thread on v.i. that mentions this library in my view is troll-ish. Especially when the number one composer in the industry has (graciously) told you that you off base.

I was off base on one aspect which I conceded to, still doesn't change my initial impression, just my perspective on the brand Hans Zimmer going forward. Everything else we are still discussing. And I keep repeating myself on certain things because people mischaracterise what I am trying to say....lots of "oh you say x so what you mean is y" and I have to repeat it to tell them "no I mean x'

I'm less gracious maybe, but after spending some days paddling around in this library and realising that, even after days of working with it, I'm just getting to understand it a bit, I definitely think that you have completely missed the point. I've been using it in a project for which it is actually perfect -- wish I'd had it from the start.

I'm using it also, I paid for it. And if you watch the video John, and I assume you havn't because your ignorance to my position is clear....I actually like the library. The sounds in it are useable and creative. That doesn't change that I was initially disappointed for not getting what I thought I was getting (something many in all the posts and comments on the video seem to agree with me on). But I can still appreciate what is there. But I will be honest I have been using it pretty much since it came out too and lets not kid ourselves its not super deep beyond what you first play. The mic positions are cool and change the sounds in interesting ways (as most libs with mic positions do), but beyond that what 'depth' have you discovered that you didn't know the first few times you hit a key. People keep talking about this mysterious learning curve with HZS which I seemingly havn't hit yet. The only learning cuve I found at all is trying to remember which section had which articulation.

Your review makes you sound like a Johnny One Note composer who thinks "epic" comes from a single finger on a single sound. It doesn't. It comes from a subtle approach to the whole engine that is the orchestra and samples and technology.

Still not a reviewer John its a first look. Its labelled as such, people watch it as such. Its video designed to discuss what its like using it out of the box. There will be reviews coming, but my first look was live, and honest, and withness by hundreds of people...its hard to be fake in that sort of scrutiny. So if you disagree thats fine but if I did something 'wrong' come to a live show and point it out!

Similarly, thrashing through, within one day of release, a library this elaborate is risky and hasty. Then you adopt the tactics I remember from Hollywood Strings, insinuating that any contradiction represents a personal attack on you, or that there is bias, or that you are the one who tells it like it is -- you tell it as you see it and are so overconfident that you think your opinion is the best

John point to the bit where I am claiming I am being attacked personally. No really please. Well other than the line where Paul tried to dig out an email exchange quote to undermine my position. Which did feel like an attack. I think you will actually find that I am saying I am ok with people disagreeing with me and I am happy to debate their reasoning, which is why these threads are long. The only people claim ATTACKS are on the Spitfire side. No one is attacking Spitfire here. We are discussing a product, issues with it (be that bugs or peoples misconceptions) and in this thread the ethics of compensated review. What is this attack you speak of, you have all these notions in your head about what are going on but they don't match with the reality of the actually quite polite interactions most are having.

And when called out you retreat and say "but, it's only a first look, not a review." Five and a half hours not a review? Give me a break.

What did I do in the video though John. I opened it up, the looked at the content, for the first time ever, while on livestream with an audience....thats a first look. Reviews tend to be more thorough, I never labelled it as a review, I labelled it a first look. Because it was just that, my initial out of the box impressions and feelings. Im allowed to make a first look if I want. If you then go and watch my first look expecting a review you will be disappointed.....like I was when a library that said Hans Zimmer on it didn't sound particularly Hans Zimmer-ish. Funny how misconceptions can mess with our perceptions like that huh ;) I conceded under that logic about what the Hans Zimmer brands mean. Maybe you should with this notion you have that I do reviews, even when I clearly label something first look.

I think the library offers enormous creative potential and range and look forward to using it for a long time. The samples are clean and the controls are easy to figure out even without looking at the manual -- except maybe the volume slider, upper right. Didn't see that at first.

Me too. I really do think you have it twisted in your mind where I actually stand on this library. I love it. I love it, as a string library. I just didn't like it as a Hans Zimmer String library because at the time of doing my first look my impression of what Hans Zimmer met was different than what it means after having these discussions. If I did a review of it later down the line I would mention that fact. But as it stands that was a record of my initial feeling towards the library and I still absolutely support what I said, many others had similar misconceptions of what the library would be about too (just read the comments or threads if you need proof) but thats ok, I learned through these debates what Hans Zimmer on a product means going forward.

But anyways John you always seem to pop up when I get involved in debates on the opposite side. Usually not particularly happy with me either...its been this way since East West PLAY. I don't expect it to change and you clearly don't like the way I am as a person. You should probably just ignore me here. Because I genuinely don't think we are going to meet much common ground. Sometimes it feels like we are just arguing for the sake of it. I have said like 99% of what I have in this post multiple times already XD

-DJ
 
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Your review makes you sound like a Johnny One Note composer who thinks "epic" comes from a single finger on a single sound... You have all this pesky orchestration and knowledge you have to have to get there.
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Saying DJ lacks chops? That's enough VI-C bullshit for a couple days.
 
Saying DJ lacks chops? That's enough VI-C bullshit for a couple days.

I feel like John has an idea of who I am in his head that doesn't quite match the reality. He is mostly just angry whenever I speak xD Its all good though he did have some decent talking points in there. I am used to being mischaracterised, thats why I respond so much, to make sure people don't infer I am saying something I'm not. In reference to the bit you quoted about my being Johnny One note, I get the feeling he watched that one little 2 miniute clip someone made of my 5 hour first look and is basing everything on that one moment which was over the top for comedic effect. Context matters.

-DJ
 
Oh no I get it (I used to program games as a kid haha) I'm just saying that the legato script is broken in such an overt way that whatever they changed at the last second must have been significant enough to warrant one final check.

If you are changing code at the last second that has the potential to break something else important, you check what it might have broken.

[...]

-DJ

He definitely gets it. The industry calls it Regression Testing. I'm guessing DJ just calls it common sense (which it is).
 
He definitely gets it. The industry calls it Regression Testing. I'm guessing DJ just calls it common sense (which it is).
Actually, smoke testing would be the most accurate term. Smoke tests can be performed quickly and cover overall basic functionality while regression testing is more detailed and time consuming for the QA team. I'd say a legato test would fall under basic functionality while batteries of regression tests, being more focused on specific aspects of a program, website, etc could easily miss basic functionality in other areas... Also, why am I commenting on software testing (the last thing I want to think about) at midnight when I should be going to bed and getting some sleep? lol Probably the same reason why I have arguments in comment sections about why The Last Jedi has some serious flaws with Lucasfilm apologists.... YES - I need a break from the internet. Cheers. :)
 
Actually, smoke testing would be the most accurate term. Smoke tests can be performed quickly and cover overall basic functionality while regression testing is more detailed and time consuming for the QA team. I'd say a legato test would fall under basic functionality while batteries of regression tests, being more focused on specific aspects of a program, website, etc could easily miss basic functionality in other areas... Also, why am I commenting on software testing (the last thing I want to think about) at midnight when I should be going to bed and getting some sleep? lol Probably the same reason why I have arguments in comment sections about why The Last Jedi has some serious flaws with Lucasfilm apologists.... YES - I need a break from the internet. Cheers. :)

Yep, you're right. Legato would make it a smoke test. Regardless if it's smoke, sanity or regression... gotta test!

I want to make a joke here about my own sanity being tested but I'm too exhausted to think one.
 
no, that doesn't make it a review. where I come from, a serious review always includes research and at least reading the manual. if you read a review in Sound On Sound or any other serious publication, a lot of time has been put into it. this includes a dialog with the manufacturer of the product, not necessarily to sweeten up the review but to get the facts right. the dialog is necessary to get things right. it's a fact check. what daniel did is not a review, it is a first look at something new. like a blog of his unfiltered thoughts when he checks it out the first time.
OT... I've been an SOS reader since the early 90s (biscuit please) and I think I have counted three negative reviews in that time! Whenever I buy a piece of hardware I always ask if I can get a discount based on all the copies of SOS I have piled up on the stairs!

Back closer to topic. FFS VI-c needs a bit of cleaning up at this point. There is an awful lot of not helping musicians going on. The actual useful info about e.g. Performance of the new Spitfire plug in on different systems is lost in this sea of BS. IMHO of course.
 
Jeez. Just went back and read this thread and Daniel James is spot on, while Mr. Thompson has made me never want to buy a spitfire product again. Dude, why are you even commenting?
 
I feel like John has an idea of who I am in his head that doesn't quite match the reality. He is mostly just angry whenever I speak xD Its all good though he did have some decent talking points in there. I am used to being mischaracterised, thats why I respond so much, to make sure people don't infer I am saying something I'm not. In reference to the bit you quoted about my being Johnny One note, I get the feeling he watched that one little 2 miniute clip someone made of my 5 hour first look and is basing everything on that one moment which was over the top for comedic effect. Context matters.

-DJ

DJ - I have to say...

I am sure you're immensely talented and a lovely guy in person. However, considering the ridiculous amount of time you've spent on this issue, it does rather come across as:

1) You've got a bit of an 'agenda' maybe. The 'sticking the boot in / but I'm just being honest and they're all lovely and I just wanna be mates' approach isn't fooling everyone.

2) You're somewhat obsessed. You remind me of Chief Inspector Dreyfus in the Pink Panther films. He was a tad fixated too.

Maybe I'm wrong but that's how you come across. Imagine how many trailers you could have knocked out in this time.

It's all getting rather silly I think. Move on dude. It's not life or death.

It's some software.

Version 1.0
 
I mean you can say about Daniels music that you like it or not, and although this is not at all my cup of tea what he composes, I think he does what he does pretty well and better than most of the stuff I have seen here on a regular base in the members composition section. John G mentioned this one note thing and epic. That was at least how I understood it from Daniel not the point at all. He was mentioning that instruments for instance recorded in 8vas like DB + Cellos will sound always better and more realistic then layering 2 single patches recorded separately. (which has a couple of reasons which is another topic and not important here) But I wouldn´t put that into this category of instant gratification at all, because I do things like that as well just because I know how to orchestrate and I am using certain strongs of libraries where they recorded such things either in unison or octaves when available to beef up my tracks. And surerly a Hans Zimmer library would have benefit from such patches because they are also the meat and grind of at least some of HZ more epic famous compositions. And knowing that you can layer DB / Cellos in octaves is by the way an absolute "beginners skillset" in orchestration for me so I wouldn´t label such technique as excuisite at all. Maybe that still can impress some people.
 
Oh man I wish it worked like that.

For what it's worth I pay over 50% taxes here in the US, but let's call it an even 50%.

If I make $100,000 I pay $50,000 in taxes on that.

If I buy a sample library for $500 now I write it off of the $100k and pay 50% of $99,500 which is $49,750. So the library "only" cost me a net $250. I spent $500 and I saved $250 on taxes. That is what procreative is saying.

Ir's fun to see how far off-topic we can push this thread from it's original intent, it's crazy. Anyone watching the Red Sox & Marlins today?
You need a new accountant.
 
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