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How long do you take to build an orchestral template?

How long do you need to build a full orchestral template from scratch?


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those templates, historically, have never lasted long because they're inheritenly inflexible.

? I don't get this -- not picking on you in particular, but you are not the first person to say or imply that templates are inflexible. Of course they are flexible.

The synth / electronic sounds portion does get changed a lot for each project; probably obvious why. But if part of your sound is orchestral samples, why on earth would you want to reload those every time?
 
The last time I did it from scratch, it took me, 40 days. Thats' with all my Vepro slave stuff being built from the ground up. I think I'm going to take this Dec and re-do it again.

2800 track surround template with 7 slaves.
 
I'm just a hobbyist, and I don't specifically do orchestral stuff, but with hundreds of libraries sitting on my SSD drive, I prefer to go the "custom multi" way, or I'll never get anything done. Scrolling through millions of presets every time I want to play is not an option. I prefer to sit with a beer, and built comprehensive multis, based on my personal taste.

For exemple, I create a project in Cubase 9.5 called "Rinascimento", and I will create a multi in Kontakt 5 for every category of instrument (Rina_Strings, Rina_Reeds, Rina_Percussions, etc). So the Rinascimento project becomes like a hardware tone module, with different internal banks ready to be dialed in, like in the good old days. I might also create other projects called ERA II, Woodwinds, CinePerc, Solo Strings, etc, following the same idea. With these comprehensive multis saved, I can quickly compare libraries, and find the best patches for what I have in mind for a particular project. So I import the Kontakt multis that I need for a project, delete the sounds I know I won't use, and then save the new multi under an another name.
 
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I usually take a few days, but I fully agree on "decades". That it sounds ok after a few days doesn't mean it sounds the way I really want it. There is always change - rebalancing an articulation, adding something new, changing up stuff.

I don't get the template-hate either - I agree that templates are less useful for experimental musicians, or people that do lots of different stuff. But when you compose Orchestral, a template is worth it's creation time. Simply because you have to do so many tweaks - it would be extremely annoying to do so everytime - speaking of balancing (ok, can be saved as Kontakt Patch/multi, granted), EQing, routing for stems, Reverbs and delays, other desired FX. Sure, it all can be saved as presets, but it's annoying to do the same over and over again for each track.

Your template is often more than just "one horn track", there could be many different horn tracks, combinations of different libraries, different EQ settings etc. Not everyone needs a template, but a template is an extremely flexible solution which does one thing better than having none: Time saving. I can open my DP, create a new track from my template, a few seconds later I'm ready to write - in a quality that's good enough for most use cases (It should be better - I'm working on it ;) ). Whereas without template I need an hour to set the track up, and then hours to mix. I'm not paid (enough) for that hassles all the time.

That said, for projects where the Sonic pallette is very clear and I for some reason don't have it in my template, I create an empty project. Let's say I need two synths and a piano and both synths are not in my template - fine, it's not orchestral anyway, create it. But then I might create my "minimal" template out of it with my most beloved synths, patches and Instruments - if such a scenario comes again I'm prepared.
I also tend to create an empty track when I know that I'm gonna be working on my laptop (meaning that I am mobile compared to my stationary setup in my studio).
 
This functionality seems very interesting...could you explain it a little bit? Thanks ;)

In case you didn't get it working yet, here's the process with a couple of screenshots:

1. File -> Import -> Track from Project

1.jpg

2. Choose a project in the explorer and after you've picked it, choose the included track (here I just chose all from my minitemplate)

2.jpg

3. Your track(s) are now in the new project! Note that the associated expression maps don't seem to transfer with the tracks, so you need to import them separately. But otherwise you'll get the exactly same track that is in your template.

3.jpg
 
In case you didn't get it working yet, here's the process with a couple of screenshots:

1. File -> Import -> Track from Project

1.jpg

2. Choose a project in the explorer and after you've picked it, choose the included track (here I just chose all from my minitemplate)

2.jpg

3. Your track(s) are now in the new project! Note that the associated expression maps don't seem to transfer with the tracks, so you need to import them separately. But otherwise you'll get the exactly same track that is in your template.

3.jpg
Yes, thanks!! I didn't know this ;)
 
Note that the associated expression maps don't seem to transfer with the tracks, so you need to import them separately. But otherwise you'll get the exactly same track that is in your template.

3.jpg

If you start from a "bare bones" template WITH all the Expression Maps you need - the instrument tracks you import from a project will find them. At least it does for me.

Hywel
 
? I don't get this -- not picking on you in particular, but you are not the first person to say or imply that templates are inflexible. Of course they are flexible.

The synth / electronic sounds portion does get changed a lot for each project; probably obvious why. But if part of your sound is orchestral samples, why on earth would you want to reload those every time?

I am referring to the all-in-one premixed templates. You know, the ones where you've set up all your delays and EQ and what not to make everything sound as though it's in the same hall. What I meant is, once you've done so much pre-mixing and balancing work to make everything sound cohesive you're "stuck" with that particular sound.

Well, not really stuck of course, you can change everything again... all those parameters could be adjusted to make the template sound like it's a different hall, but that's a lot of work. That's the inflexibility I am referring to. I do have a template with my go-to samples loaded and balanced I just don't pre-mix them. Instead, the template contains the infrastructure necessary to export any microphone position I want so I can, once the composition is done, mix it however I like.

Does that make more sense?

In other words: I don't have a default hall sound set up.

Again, I must emphasize that I'm not saying any other approach is wrong. This is just what works for me :)
 
In case you didn't get it working yet, here's the process with a couple of screenshots:

1. File -> Import -> Track from Project

1.jpg

2. Choose a project in the explorer and after you've picked it, choose the included track (here I just chose all from my minitemplate)

2.jpg

3. Your track(s) are now in the new project! Note that the associated expression maps don't seem to transfer with the tracks, so you need to import them separately. But otherwise you'll get the exactly same track that is in your template.

3.jpg
Now try to import group tracks and routing ;)
 
It's probably the single most frustrating thing on the planet when it comes to digital music making. I have wasted endless hours of work to get to a decent setup and guess what ... I'm still at it. In my opinion today's DAWs and also our lovely samplers and other toys like VEP are simply not really up to the task to manage a massive template - at least from a user experience perspective.

Basic example: Why does Cubase and/or VEP save an entire copy of the plugins with every single project file? What for? It's all on the disk. (please advise if I am missing something) We just need a link to it. Why can't I purge the sample cache via a remote command for all instruments? That one alone takes me ages during the template setup process ...
 
I have an orchestral template which is the foundation for my music and is ready routed with reverb, channels, mics, balancing, etc. This took a week but I didn’t work full days with it. And sometimes it changes if I add a library.

Then I have a couple of templates for non-Orchestral works so I usually add extra stuff to the templates from project to project. But to have the traditional orchestra ready helps a lot.
 
Took me only a couple of hours. My setup is pretty simple though. Just the Spitfire essentials: winds, brass, percussion, harp, piano, strings.
 
Now try to import group tracks and routing ;)

Yes, I am fully aware of that, thanks for reminding me. :thumbsdown: I use Media Bay for quick and dirty (pre- saved) group- and FX track importing but the routing is still impossible. At least Pro Tools does something right in that, if you ask me. ;)
I normally use pre- routed mix (blank and named channels only, no inserts/eq's etc) templates luckily, so I'm more concerned on the actual instrument channel importing only when composing and arranging. For that, Cubase is fortunately enough for me!

@Hywel , thanks for the tip with the expression maps, gotta try it out!
 
Basic example: Why does Cubase and/or VEP save an entire copy of the plugins with every single project file? What for? It's all on the disk. (please advise if I am missing something) We just need a link to it. Why can't I purge the sample cache via a remote command for all instruments? That one alone takes me ages during the template setup process ...

Answer 1: Save your project Decoupled. Once your VEP project is set up the way you like it, this should not present a problem.
Answer 2: Because some people do not make templates and would prefer to have their DAW store the VEP info.
Answer 3: AFAIK you cannot purge the sample cache in this way, but you can turn VEP loaded instruments on or off remotely, thus unloading entirely unused instruments - works really well (if you are into that kind of thing). This may not be what you are asking, but it might help...
 
Answer 1: Save your project Decoupled. Once your VEP project is set up the way you like it, this should not present a problem.
Answer 2: Because some people do not make templates and would prefer to have their DAW store the VEP info.
Answer 3: AFAIK you cannot purge the sample cache in this way, but you can turn VEP loaded instruments on or off remotely, thus unloading entirely unused instruments - works really well (if you are into that kind of thing). This may not be what you are asking, but it might help...

Jap, that's the reason why I am actually using VEP after all... the decoupling. But it still strikes me that any software be it DAW or VI host has to store so much data while it should be fully sufficient to only store the settings (simple text) and load that information together with the actual big patches that are on the sample HDs anyways, thus making it all much more efficient. There is zero need to have it embedded unless you absolutely want it that way (maybe for backup purposes...).

I briefly looked into abandoning VEP altogether and changing my workflow/template to a more setup-disable-load-when-needed fashion directly in Cubase as suggested by quite a few people here. If I am not mistake that is also still the favored approach people like Blakus use for their craft of art. But I am absolutely not willing to have to deal with x100MB sized project files which take forever to be saved even on a relatively fast SSD...
 
Forever. I usually give up when I'm halfway done and ask myself why am I doing this? The way I work now is I've created single track templates in Reaper. I have several different violin templates. Several different cello templates, etc., all set to my personal specifications. When I need a particular sound or ensemble, I right click, add the track template and carry on. It loads in seconds. That way I only have the tracks I need, the instruments I need, the settings I need, and never have to worry about overloading the system. I have come to the conclusion that massive orchestral templates are pointless for me.
 
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