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Attention to developers...piracy on e-bay maybe?

The comment was hyperbolic, I admit, but they did "hijack" their terms & conditions, changing the direction of their ship in "mid-passage" as it were, after many of us had already invested heavily into their ecosphere, were already passengers on the boat. Isn't that what pirates do?

And the broader, sarcastic point I guess is that people on these sorts of forums love to get self-righteously up-in-arms over abuses performed by hackers on the low end, but too often overlook or excuse whatever new rules are imposed from the high-end, from positions of corporate (and in Ni's case, monopolistic) power.

In the arena of software commerce, term "piracy" is a catch-all buzzword exploited to justify all manner of draconian, lockdown EULAS and CP in exactly the same way that "terrorism" is used by politicians in the wider society to justify measures that result in the decimation of civil liberties in general. IMHO we would be better-served by expending less energy moralizing about the kid at the torrent site and instead engage more attention to consumer rights and fairness for the honest end-user. Justice is not a natural byproduct of a system that exists only to serve capital. If we want justice, we have to demand it.
 
One of the ideas behind the free instrument PD/CC idea is to take away the excuse that you can't make music without stealing. While certainly far from the quality of Berlin / Spitfire, there are passable free SFZ and VSTi orchestral instruments and combined with the Tracktion DAW anyone with a passable computer can make music for free.

All the other 'reasons' are just excuses for theft.
 
Whats the big deal? 99% of the libraries can be downloaded for free, most of the people who use warez wouldnt bought the product in the first place, and use the libraries just for fun. So no loss in my opinion....

Most people who buy libraries aren't professionals. These companies make money mostly from hobbyists and people who have aspirations which is why you'll find many of them no longer sell single libraries for thousands like they used to. The prices have dropped over the years significantly but the fact remains that this is how these people put food on their table. Plus, there are plenty of people who buy libraries... until it hits the scene. There have been plenty of developers even here who have talked about their sales tanking the day their stuff hits torrent sites.
 
I guess the thing for me is - you can't afford to pay $30 a month for EastWest Composer Cloud but you can pay for the expensive computer to run it on? Were your computer and midi keyboard "borrowed" because you couldn't afford to pay for those too? Of course not because that would obviously be stealing.

There are a lot of things I would love to have - a Lamborghini, a nice villa in the south of France, etc. - but I accept that I don't have the means to buy such things and enjoy driving my minivan and living in my little house in the suburbs instead. :)

Yes some of these libraries are expensive and out of the reach of some who want them, but libraries like the ones from Spitfire and Orchestral Tools are meant for professionals and are priced accordingly. Take a look at other hobbies/professions and see how much the professional level tools are. I'm really into photography and there are lenses out there in the 10s of thousands of dollars. But photographers don't break into camera stores and steal lenses under the auspices of "but I can't afford it!".
 
Honestly, I never thought piracy hurt sales. I just think of the low-lifes that break the law. Criminals should be treated like criminals. Theft is theft at any level.

And while sales may not be hurting, devs can't tell or don't know differently...therefore, the prices still go up in an attempt to recoup something they may have never had. That or they invest money into protection methods which are then passed on to the buyer. So piracy DOES hurt paying customers, even though sales MAY or MAY NOT be affected (and I find very few studies that are not skewed in one direction or another). But even that I don't care about. I just want law breakers where they belong.
 
The comment was hyperbolic, I admit, but they did "hijack" their terms & conditions, changing the direction of their ship in "mid-passage" as it were, after many of us had already invested heavily into their ecosphere, were already passengers on the boat. Isn't that what pirates do?

And the broader, sarcastic point I guess is that people on these sorts of forums love to get self-righteously up-in-arms over abuses performed by hackers on the low end, but too often overlook or excuse whatever new rules are imposed from the high-end, from positions of corporate (and in Ni's case, monopolistic) power.

In the arena of software commerce, term "piracy" is a catch-all buzzword exploited to justify all manner of draconian, lockdown EULAS and CP in exactly the same way that "terrorism" is used by politicians in the wider society to justify measures that result in the decimation of civil liberties in general. IMHO we would be better-served by expending less energy moralizing about the kid at the torrent site and instead engage more attention to consumer rights and fairness for the honest end-user. Justice is not a natural byproduct of a system that exists only to serve capital. If we want justice, we have to demand it.
I agree with a lot of this. What actually bothers me just as much as the punks illegally downloading software are developers who don't allow the resale of their licenses so that they can make more money. Seems both sides are as equally greedy.
 
Honestly, I never thought piracy hurt sales

Piracy, much like beginners working for free, is (as many insist) a killer of hopes and dreams for financial success for "the industry", collectively.

Yet somehow, despite all the piracy, people making music for crappy indie films for next to nothing, and many of us exclusively buying these libraries at as much as 75% discounts on sales, companies like 8Dio manage to produce and release exorbitantly-priced software every single year.

I agree with a lot of this. What actually bothers me just as much as the punks illegally downloading software are developers who don't allow the resale of their licenses so that they can make more money. Seems both sides are as equally greedy.

Because that's the way of the software-industry. You have to defeat those pirates; so treat every consumer as if they are a pirate.

I mean, all my stuff is legit, but this ship has sailed since at least 2001 — people are going to pirate your stuff, but far too many companies, bands, etc. treat it as this boogeyman to shift blame onto.
 
I agree with a lot of this. What actually bothers me just as much as the punks illegally downloading software are developers who don't allow the resale of their licenses so that they can make more money. Seems both sides are as equally greedy.
I agree that people should have the right to resell their licenses, although this doesn't personally bother me and I don't make buying decisions based on this. But when you have the dual realities of not being able to try before you buy + not being able to resell, it puts the consumer in a most unfair position.

Plus, if you think about it, the whole packaging of software is kind of bogus. You begin an installation and a EULA opens up that you can agree to or not. But of course by this time you're already past the point where you can disagree with the terms and get your money back. So there's no real choice but to agree, and thus culturally EULAs are nothing except little boxes to click yes to. It's all they mean to virtually any end-user.

It's ironic to me that software, which by it's very nature exists in potentially unlimited quantity, utilizes the resource distribution paradigms that were created out of necessity because of natural material scarcity. I can understand this to a degree, because everyone has to make a living within the framework of the economic system we currently have. But to lock down software rights of usage far beyond that which we take for granted for hardware is absurd and unfair. If I buy a power drill, I don''t have to sign an agreement that I will never sell it, that I won't let my neighbor borrow it etc... It seems that software purchases should at least confer something akin to the same privileges of hardware ownership, with reasonable limitations imposed to prevent redistribution in the ways that are physically impossible with hardware.

If civilization survives to advance to the point of Star Trek-like replicators, we'll have the same issue with 3D objects. Captain Picard will ask the machine for his cup of Earl Grey tea and be told that his authorization failed...
 
Whats the big deal? 99% of the libraries can be downloaded for free, most of the people who use warez wouldnt bought the product in the first place, and use the libraries just for fun. So no loss in my opinion....

So if I go into a hardware store and steal a hammer, it's ok, because you see I'm not a professional builder, I just like hammering in nails in my spare time for fun, so no loss to anyone right? The hardware store and the hammer company make plenty of money selling hammers to professional builders, right? I don't intend to make money with that hammer, so it should be free, right?

Yeah, the "for fun" argument doesn't hold up IMHO.
 
So if I go into a hardware store and steal a hammer, it's ok, because you see I'm not a professional builder, I just like hammering in nails in my spare time for fun, so no loss to anyone right? The hardware store and the hammer company make plenty of money selling hammers to professional builders, right? I don't intend to make money with that hammer, so it should be free, right?

Yeah, the "for fun" argument doesn't hold up IMHO.
No no! That doesn't hold any weight because that's a TANGIBLE ITEM. When you download something, nothing is lost!


...except food on the developers table or money to the company needed to develop new products. But who cares about that, right? I mean, after all, the people downloading aren't professionals and don't have money for this really expensive professional tool.

The excuses to justify piracy always make me facepalm.
 
Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.
 
Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.

Could we hear some of your inspiring, original music?
 
Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.
Off topic. Heh.
 
Well if enough people would simply scrap the samples/VST/MIDi garbage, pick up a real instrument, take the time to learn proper theory and technique, practice until proficient, and practice more until perfect, the world would be a better place. Too much uninspired, derivative, dross, and robotic music clogging up the system.

Yeah, my neighbours would love me to start learning the taiko, kettledrum, and tuba.
 
Very interesting debate! - I am, as a hopeful young composer, more drawn to the idea of buying my next great library and then use it until I know the great aspects and features of it. I think this makes much more sense than to just download all of the huge and great libraries for them just to be there in my library tab.

Being against piracy, I am hoping for more developers to make demo patches for future/new consumers to try and then decide whether or not to purchase.

As already mentioned most core consumers of these products are like me (trying to fulfil dreams and hops) or hobbyist. And for me, I make a great deal of what I use my head earned money on.

I do not know if my point makes sense..But that's my opinion.
 
Very interesting debate! - I am, as a hopeful young composer, more drawn to the idea of buying my next great library and then use it until I know the great aspects and features of it. I think this makes much more sense than to just download all of the huge and great libraries for them just to be there in my library tab.

Being against piracy, I am hoping for more developers to make demo patches for future/new consumers to try and then decide whether or not to purchase.

As already mentioned most core consumers of these products are like me (trying to fulfil dreams and hops) or hobbyist. And for me, I make a great deal of what I use my head earned money on.

I do not know if my point makes sense..But that's my opinion.

IMO, a better business model is needed. We need more (optional) subscription models, more trials (8Dio is doing this I see), greater price drops on positively ancient software, more updates to existing products, and the ability to sell the damn product if you've no further need or want of it.

People shit on the composer cloud, but I think it's absolutely the way forward; especially given how over-priced so many sample libraries are to buy outright.

and I know people are going to be on me about that point, but I stand by it. I've found myself disappointed to some degree with a majority of purchases that I've made; there is no way to try it before I buy it and I can't even resell the thing.

For example, East West's Ra still sells for a regular 399 USD, features archaic programming, no true legato, etc. but you can buy Eduardo Tarilonte's (the one dev I've never had any complaints with) Ancient Era: Persia, for nearly half the price, which runs in a better player, true legato, better programming and has more instruments pertaining to the ancient world than the other product which is also over 10 years old.

I also have Cinebrass Core, and while it's mostly great, I only had audio demos, reviews (which are rarely completely honest) and user testimony to go buy, but I found the lack of legato Trombone more disappointing than I thought it would be and velocity layers really are in short supply, but it still cost me nearly 600 CAD. I assume "you need to get pro, too" is a response to this? Just...fuck. At least Mike Patti updates things.

Meanwhile, I just built an octacore-CPU-powered, brand new computer for a friend, using fairly contemporary (not second-hand) parts, and kept the cost of doing so under 500$.
 
I despise the subscription model. I much prefer these companies go the route of Rent To Own which seems to be becoming more popular.
Amen to that. I'm surprised Xfer is still the only company to have the balls and scruples to do rent to own.

As far as piracy on Ebay, it's littered with it. From someone who's been through this a few times the reality is Ebay isn't even slightly concerned about sellers fencing stolen or pirated merch. They pretend to give a shit when you can prove you've been screwed, but you'd be nauseated how often you'll see the same seller still aloud to sell despite multiple strikes (and comments blatantly stating stolen merch)... Personally I stay off there unless I'm looking for something that simply can't be found anywhere else...
 
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