v.i. control forum

[autopilot]

Buy Lass now - it works.

By HS later when you know exactly what it is and that it works.

[SvK]

removed

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

After what SvK said I'm doing some searching for CS examples (very rare)

http://www.cinematicstrings.com/CS_The_City.mp3

I was thoroughly impressed with the overall sound an warmth.

[josejherring]

Mike Connelly @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:31 am wrote:

One other thing to think about...

I generally much prefer using Kontakt over PLAY, but there's a 64 bit version of Logic out now and EW says they'll be 64 bit soon while NI won't give any indication how far off it is, and tries to downplay the significance of it.

If PLAY does go 64 bit soon (hopefully before HS ships) and Kontakt takes months or years, that could be a pretty big potential advantage for HS. Obviously not a factor on the PC side since I believe both have been 64 bit for a while.

On that note, time for all you mac Kontakt users to start bugging NI to get going on that 64 bit update.

Play is 64bit and so is Kontakt. Don't know about the player thingies as I don't use them but the sampler is.

Jose

[Mike Connelly]

I'll see if I can find where I read it was impulse responses (it's possible it's some other means of emulation, but I'm pretty sure they're not recordings). Nick is on this board, he should be able to clarify.

They don't list sordino under articulations, but under gold it says:
All articulations and bowings, except divisi, bow-change legato, and sordino.

josejherring @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:57 pm wrote:

Play is 64bit and so is Kontakt.

Neither is a 64 bit plugin on the mac. Kontakt is supposedly 64 bit standalone, PLAY is still 32.

[Peter Alexander]

JohnG @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:43 pm wrote:

The sordino sound is modeled. Thomas B said that the benefit is that you can, "take it on and off during a passage (it responds to automation), and it works on every patch in the library. It's instant, no doubling of the template, and it sounds great."

For those totting up such things, con sordino is not included in the list of articulations on their website.

It's in the video. And it's on the EW web site where it states that sordino not included with Gold.

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

Yeah, and there still isn't a string lib I've heard that truely captures it.

Usually they are way too bright.

[SvK]

actually the VSL 14s Sords Originals sound great

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

SvK @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:58 pm wrote:

actually the VSL 14s Sords Originals sound great

I've always had to EQ them down.

[Nick Phoenix]

Sordino in HS is modeled. You can hear it in the video for a brief moment. Does it not sound like great sordinos? We recorded real sordinos in HS, but they were only for analysis and comparison to the regular recordings. The benefit here is we have sordino for all patches including the most advanced legato interval 11,000 sample patches. That's what I want sordino for. Not just a sustain patch. It actually sounds really cool on some of the short articulations too.

I read some of the comments about dynamics, velocity switching etc.. and HS has no relationship to EWQLSO. HS has more round robins and velocities than any other string library. We also have up and down bow round robin sustains. A typical sustain patch has 5 dynamics of non vibrato up and down bow, 5 dynamics of vibrato up and down bow, and 3 dynamics of molto vibrato up and down bow. That's 26 unique sounds up and down all controllable via CC1 and CC11. Each section has approximately 20,000 short note samples (one mic position). The next tutorial I make will probably be longer than the LOTR trilogy.

[Peter Alexander]

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:52 pm wrote:

Sordino in HS is modeled. You can hear it in the video for a brief moment. Does it not sound like great sordinos?

When you say you have muted strings, that means they were recorded with the mutes ON the strings. And you have modeled sordinos for all patches.

You just need to come up with a short statement that explains what you did so everyone understands what they're buying.

[SvK]

Nathan....

Sure but VIenna is UnEq'd so as long as you know what you are doing it's fine...

[SvK]

Nick

thanx for explanation...the modeling, is it done with an IR?

Or simply an EQ?

SvK

[Nick Phoenix]

Yes mutes on the strings. We recorded this but only use it for analysis. The Hollywood Strings Interface creates a mute on the string "con sordino" effect. How we do it is our little secret. I'll make sure you can really hear it in the next tutorial.

[Dan-Jay]

Impressive news, Nick.

[SvK]

Thanx Nick...

SvK

[dcoscina]

Nick Phoenix @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:52 pm wrote:

Sordino in HS is modeled. You can hear it in the video for a brief moment. Does it not sound like great sordinos? We recorded real sordinos in HS, but they were only for analysis and comparison to the regular recordings. The benefit here is we have sordino for all patches including the most advanced legato interval 11,000 sample patches. That's what I want sordino for. Not just a sustain patch. It actually sounds really cool on some of the short articulations too.

I read some of the comments about dynamics, velocity switching etc.. and HS has no relationship to EWQLSO. HS has more round robins and velocities than any other string library. We also have up and down bow round robin sustains. A typical sustain patch has 5 dynamics of non vibrato up and down bow, 5 dynamics of vibrato up and down bow, and 3 dynamics of molto vibrato up and down bow. That's 26 unique sounds up and down all controllable via CC1 and CC11. Each section has approximately 20,000 short note samples (one mic position). The next tutorial I make will probably be longer than the LOTR trilogy.

damn I'm hyped! Glad you're back too Nick.

[stevenson-again]

i'm not necessarily too bothered whether the sords are modelled or not so long as they good. at least, since they have been recorded they could be released in an update if people were not convinced, or they wanted to apply their own tricks to it. either way, it's not a deal maker or breaker is it?

[Simon Ravn]

While I was first put off by the fact that the sordinos are "fake", Nick's arguments make sense to me. In all existing string libraries, sordinos are rather limited and you don't get all the tremolos, trills, short notes etc. Just sustains, which limits your writing when you want the sound of muted strings. While the sound might not be 100% "real", I think it is a good solution.

Is this "modelling" applied as an IR realtime, or did you process all the samples, effectively doubling the size of the libraries to get sordinos?! (I assume the first).

[Christian Marcussen]

Simon Ravn @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:50 am wrote:

While I was first put off by the fact that the sordinos are "fake", Nick's arguments make sense to me. In all existing string libraries, sordinos are rather limited and you don't get all the tremolos, trills, short notes etc. Just sustains, which limits your writing when you want the sound of muted strings. While the sound might not be 100% "real", I think it is a good solution.

Is this "modelling" applied as an IR realtime, or did you process all the samples, effectively doubling the size of the libraries to get sordinos?! (I assume the first).

Yeah, I agree. It makes good sense.

[Rob Elliott]

I agree on the sordinos - this was a GOOD decision. It's all about the END product and how many choices we have at the end of the day. If a gazoo sounds better than a flute for any one project - I'm not using the flute.

Nice explanation Nick - makes me want a second copy.


We still looking like Feb 15 for ship out?


(good to have you back.)

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

The only thing is they aren't really sordino. I would've at least liked a real sordino legato, but oh well.

[Mike Connelly]

I have no objection to faking sordino as long as it sounds as good as the real thing. Based on how little we've heard of it so far, it seems premature to declare it a success - we just need to hear more. If there were recordings made of real sordino to create the processing, the ultimate demo would be to play the test recording back to back with the library playing the same thing with simulation so we can hear how close it is.

I also think the product information should explain how it is being done so buyers are fully informed, same for divisi.

Assuming that sordino can be done this way, that's great news in general since it means that it would be possible for any sample library to do the same thing (or even for users to potentially do on their own to string recordings or samples).

[TeamLeader]

Can Lass do the type of runs in the HS video at 2:56 minutes?

Thanks folks. I really like the sonority of Lass, and am trying to make an educated decision.

[Peter Alexander]

TeamLeader @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:32 pm wrote:

Can Lass do the type of runs in the HS video at 2:56 minutes?

Thanks folks. I really like the sonority of Lass, and am trying to make an educated decision.

The technical answer is that most any library can do those runs IF they have a detache program (like VSL's .7) or a legato feature.

A typical method of creating a line like that, if you lack the Grade VI piano skills to play it in live, is to step time in the rhythm of the line, then adjust the pitches, and edit from there.

I believe the question behind the question is how was that line performed. Was it live? Live and edited? Or was it step-timed and edited? And if it was edited, how long did it take to edit to achieve those results?

Once you know that, then you set up an example that's apples to apples to some degree, understanding that that particular program is unique to Hollywood Strings.

So any comparison with any library has to take that into account.

[mech289]

Nathan Allen Pinard @ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:51 pm wrote:

After what SvK said I'm doing some searching for CS examples (very rare)

http://www.cinematicstrings.com/CS_The_City.mp3

I was thoroughly impressed with the overall sound an warmth.

+1 on this, I really liked the tone.

[midphase]

I really hope that the CS guys can figure out how to tweak the legatos of their library to be more realistic because they did nail a really nice tone.

[Unison]

Nick Phoenix @ Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:52 am wrote:

A typical sustain patch has 5 dynamics of non vibrato up and down bow, 5 dynamics of vibrato up and down bow, and 3 dynamics of molto vibrato up and down bow.

Hi Nick

Thanks for elaborating! I've got a question regarding the dynamics layers.
First of all I find it fantastic you went for this many layers. Simply great approach.
Now, it would be interesting to hear about how these dynamics were recorded.
If we go by score markings, starting with pp - p - mp - mf - f .. etc..
5 is quickly reached.. So my question is.. what dynamic marks did you use for each
layer? Is it like ppp - p - mf - f - fff ? Or in other words.. how are the weaker or stronger dynamics favored. I mean, even though 5 layers is a lot.. a live string section should be able to nuance their playing at least 3 times that number (my friend who plays violin in our country's top orchestra argues the number is infinite..)

best, Nicklas

[stevenson-again]

not to put words in nicks mouth - but if you think about it what makes sense is:

1. the softest dynamic possible (sensibly)
2. the loudest dynmaic possible (sensibly)
3. equidistance between the 2 extremes
4. equidistance between the middle dynamic and loudest
5. likewise between middle and softest.

becaus the dynamics are mdhweel blended you are in effect getting 127 different dynamics and while that may not be perfect compared to a real ensemble it gives an excellent approximation.

[Nick Phoenix]

It's basically pp p mf f fff, but we use crossfading so you can get all the in betweens. In fact we are making some less cpu/disk intensive patches now that are pp, mf, fff only. They sound quite good too. They just don't have quite the same magic.

[Unison]

Thanks for clarifying, Nick!
It's going to be very interesting to hear the tender side of the library as well. And great of you to provide a wide choice for us.

Looking much forward to the next tutorial

[Nathan Allen Pinard]

midphase @ Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:24 am wrote:

I really hope that the CS guys can figure out how to tweak the legatos of their library to be more realistic because they did nail a really nice tone.

He hasn't told me exact plans, but there's a 1.5 patch coming out. I'm currently messing with CS, and will be scoring a short with it. I'm liking the sound, and the legato takes a bit of tweaking (there's an envelop control for type of legato)

Still learning what each feature is atm.

[noiseboyuk]

Does anyone know of any further info on LASS 2? Was anything said at NAMM? With the latest HS delay, I wonder if the release of LASS 2 might end up actually being quite close to HS. If LASS 2 has runs, the Kontakt reliability and efficiency combined with Andrew's superb customer support may well win me over in that direction. For me at any rate, the LASS / HS tussle still has a lot of playing out to do!

[Peter Alexander]

noiseboyuk @ Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:27 pm wrote:

Does anyone know of any further info on LASS 2? Was anything said at NAMM? With the latest HS delay, I wonder if the release of LASS 2 might end up actually being quite close to HS. If LASS 2 has runs, the Kontakt reliability and efficiency combined with Andrew's superb customer support may well win me over in that direction. For me at any rate, the LASS / HS tussle still has a lot of playing out to do!

My understanding is that the priorities are:

1. LASS Lite
2. LASS First Chairs (solo instruments)
3. the Sordinos are recorded and editing needs to be finished
4. Record LASS 2

Nothing formally has been posted about LASS 2 regarding contents, etc.. only that it's planned.

[Peter Alexander]

From the Soundsonline web site, HS Diamond is moved to February 28 for shipping and March 28 for HS Gold.