v.i. control forum

[SvK]

TUTORIAL: Applying Early Reflections to get THAT SOUND

Let's take a Dry (important) Bass Clarinet.

1) Set up a Altiverb Bus with the 8m Todd AO

2) In Altiverb turn off Direct, Placement and Tail...ONLY Leave on the EarlReflections....mix is 100% WET.

3)Send dry Bass Clarinet to that Early Reflection

4)Using a level meter make sure that Early Reflection Buss is circa 2 db LOUDER than the Dry Clarinet sound.

That's It!


Here is the example file........first you'll hear dry Clari, then dry clari+Early Refl., then dry clari+Early Refl.+Tail

Click on "Bass_Clari_ER.mp3.zip"
http://homepage.mac.com/WebObjects/FileSharing.woa/wa/default?user=svonkampen&te mplatefn=FileSharing1.html&xmlfn=TKDocument.1.xml&sitefn=RootSite.xml&aff=consum er&cty=US&lang=en


PS: For Violins and Violas, use the 3m early reflection.....and on these the relationship is the Early Reflec. is circa 6db LOWER than dry Dry Violins.......

you get the idea...notice how dialing in the Early Reflections correctly on the Bass Clari brought out the low-end? Just how it is in reality (now you don't need to EQ, nature did it for you)

SvK

[Niah]

Nice post Steven, this is really helpful.

[Rob Elliott]

Always look forward to your teaching examples Svk and your clear understanding of space creation / mixing.

Following this logic would you set the brass at the 11m mics and run them about 4-6 db more on the ER bus than the source bus (on the various meters)?

Of course season to taste - material dependent.


(would you still pan the tails away from the pan of the source (as mentioned in another thread)?


Thanks again.

Rob


(btw - Altiverb using Todd AO - single best purchase I have made in the last 2 years - no question. Gives a 'facelift' to everything - especially the strings).

[SvK]

That's exactly right

BUt I backed off from the ER a tad with the Brass and Basses (to taste like you said)

Keep in mind to "listen" to the samples......Apass1, Epic Horns have alot of ER smear in them, so a little less on them.........

Your theory is correct though!!!

ps: I gave my Todd Tails a 4db boost @ 4000Hz BTW.....

Ohhh last thing : on the TailOnly Busses adjust the pre-delay to accommodate for the ER's........I think I dialed in 3m=50ms, 8m=70ms, 12m=80ms.....so adjust them so that the tails kick in right after ER subsides......

SvK

[Rob Elliott]

Great Svk - wonderful follow up notes. The 4k boost is probably smart - I'll give that a try.


The 'pre-delay' idea is solid - hadn't even thought to do that.


Thanks again.

[Rob Elliott]

SvK @ Fri Apr 04, 2008 2:20 pm wrote:

That's exactly right

BUt I backed off from the ER a tad with the Brass and Basses (to taste like you said)

Keep in mind to "listen" to the samples......Apass1, Epic Horns have alot of ER smear in them, so a little less on them.........

Your theory is correct though!!!

ps: I gave my Todd Tails a 4db boost @ 4000Hz BTW.....

Ohhh last thing : on the TailOnly Busses adjust the pre-delay to accommodate for the ER's........I think I dialed in 3m=50ms, 8m=70ms, 12m=80ms.....so adjust them so that the tails kick in right after ER subsides......

SvK

SvK -

Working with this idea and wanted to ask a quick question or two.

For the 'tails' AV instances I have the early refl turned to about -6.5 db - what are you finding the best setting there?


...and related... the idea of

3m=50ms, 8m=70ms, 12m=80ms.....so adjust them so that the tails kick in right after ER subsides......

how can you 'listen' for the early refl time? My first impression of setting these three tails to the above is that I get more 'depth' the mix. Dialing in these three to something less gives me more definition but of course less depth.

Thanks in advance for you reply Svk.


Rob

[Rob Elliott]

Wow - experimenting here I discovered that on the 'tails' to keep the early reflection knob at 0 db (noon) - while implementing your 50,70 and 80 ms pre delay idea.

I LOVE IT. Brings more clarity without being 'stark'. Really love it - great idea Svk!!


Rob

[SvK]

Rob, you misundertand me.....

6 altiverb instances:

In 3 of them the only thing activated is the ERs

In the other 3 the only thing activated is the tails.....


So flutes for example would have 2 send knobs....one sending to the ER instance and the other to the Tail instance........


SvK

[Rob Elliott]

SvK @ Mon Apr 07, 2008 5:02 pm wrote:

Rob, you misundertand me.....

6 altiverb instances:

In 3 of them the only thing activated is the ERs

In the other 3 the only thing activated is the tails.....


So flutes for example would have 2 send knobs....one sending to the ER instance and the other to the Tail instance........


SvK

Oh for sure that is what I have set up - I just had the tails set up with the ER on but lower volume set by 6-7 db.


Tomorrow when I get into the studio I'll be sure to turn the ER off on the tails and set the 'predelay' on the tail to 50,70, and 80 - thanks Svk for straightening me out on this.

All the best,


Rob

[wonshu]

Did you ever try achieving the same using Logics Space Designer?

And if so, are there IRs out there that make this effect possible in Space Designer?

Thanks and best
Hans

[SvK]

Make it 70 80 90


Also on winds the ER should be circa 1 db LOWER than direct stem



wonshu....I am using Space Designer........I have versions of the Altiverb instances for Space Designer.........I can't share them on this site.......

I got into trouble some time ago for doing do....

SvK

[Rob Elliott]

Thanks on this Svk


Make it 70 80 90




Rob

[FireGS]

So, Stephen, what happened to the 2 busses for the Tail? You used to do it this way a while back, the ones for ER, then one for tail w/ like 60ms something pre delay, then another one further back at 90ms predelay.

Any reason this is no good?

[SvK]

FireGs:

That's right


I also have 3 seperate busses for "tail-only" as listed above.......


It is the tails that recieve pre-delay values......the pre-delays on the ER's stay @ zero.

SvK

[FireGS]

Oh my bad. I missed that part above. Now i understand Rob Elliot's post!

[Jack Weaver]

Hi SvK,

What do you do for orchestral basses & percussion?

Love the thread! Thanks for sharing this stuff with us.


Best regards,
Jack

[FireGS]

Yes, I'm very curious about percussion, too.

I find that I use a totally different approach to Percussion, except for Cymbals and Snares. Those two seem to be very affected by improper reberm. Toms, and just big loud booms, and such can use their own, different reverb. SD2 Reverb works fine for most of its stuff.

What do you do?

[SvK]

Jack,

My percussion palette is True Strike....so no ER's / Tails are needed as it is built-in to the samples....

Basses :

Basses are sent to the 12m Early Reflection....The ER and The Dry Stem are equal volume........dry stem is panned to circa 2pm..........

(Naturally all 3 ER stems are panned dead-center)

SvK

[Jack Weaver]

Merci, will try it.


.

[Rob Elliott]

SvK @ Mon Apr 14, 2008 9:24 pm wrote:

Jack,

My percussion palette is True Strike....so no ER's / Tails are needed as it is built-in to the samples....

Basses :

Basses are sent to the 12m Early Reflection....The ER and The Dry Stem are equal volume........dry stem is panned to circa 2pm..........

(Naturally all 3 ER stems are panned dead-center)

SvK

Thanks again Stephen. "IF" you were using VSL - and following the logic of your other instruments - how would you set up the Percussion (mics, tails and ER). Right now I am setting up the farthest mics and tails with moderate results (fine line between not enough 'room' and too swimmy.)


Thanks in advance.

Rob

[SvK]

I would send the timps an such to the 12mter ER with the ER being slightly louder than the dry stem (circa 1 to 2 db louder)

Have you tried the "Westlake" Drum room?
Sounds awesome on drums / orchestraL Percussion etc, if uyou use that then just add the 12 m Todd Tail.

SvK

[Rob Elliott]

Thanks Stephen - I'll give that a try.


All the best,


Rob

[SvK]

Rob,

Sure thing

Clinton Studios 8.3meter (ER and Tail) + Todd AO 12 meter tail@90pre delay sounds terrific......

It's the bomb....

SvK

[Rob Elliott]

Clinton for percussion - very cool - I'll look at that one. I like the idea of the two tails for percussion. Give the impression of distance without being swimmy- mushy.


Thanks again.


Rob

[SvK]

The clinton is fat / short...

The add tail of Todd and your there.

SvK

[Waywyn]

Thanks for posting this!
I will try to expirement with this later on tomorrow!!

[SvK]

Remember to do all of this sending Parallel...NOT serial

...that will sound totally wrong.....

What I mean to say is do NOT have the Clinton followed by the Todd Tail......


Both get placed on "seperate" busses


VERY IMPORTANT

SvK

[Waywyn]

SvK @ Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:39 am wrote:

Remember to do all of this sending Parallel...NOT serial

...that will sound totally wrong.....

What I mean to say is do NOT have the Clinton followed by the Todd Tail......


Both get placed on "seperate" busses


VERY IMPORTANT

SvK

Hey Svon, I get the whole idea but dont understand why you put Altiverbs ER and the AV tails on two different busses?
Why does it sound different when opening two AV instances on one bus - one after each other?

[Ashermusic]

Waywyn @ Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:04 am wrote:

SvK @ Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:39 am wrote:

Remember to do all of this sending Parallel...NOT serial

...that will sound totally wrong.....

What I mean to say is do NOT have the Clinton followed by the Todd Tail......


Both get placed on "seperate" busses


VERY IMPORTANT

SvK

Hey Svon, I get the whole idea but dont understand why you put Altiverbs ER and the AV tails on two different busses?
Why does it sound different when opening two AV instances on one bus - one after each other?

Because you can individually control the amount you send to each instead of having to do it globally within each GUI.

If I buy the concept, I buy the execution.

[Waywyn]

Ashermusic @ Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:35 pm wrote:

Waywyn @ Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:04 am wrote:

SvK @ Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:39 am wrote:

Remember to do all of this sending Parallel...NOT serial

...that will sound totally wrong.....

What I mean to say is do NOT have the Clinton followed by the Todd Tail......


Both get placed on "seperate" busses


VERY IMPORTANT

SvK

Hey Svon, I get the whole idea but dont understand why you put Altiverbs ER and the AV tails on two different busses?
Why does it sound different when opening two AV instances on one bus - one after each other?

Because you can individually control the amount you send to each instead of having to do it globally within each GUI.

If I buy the concept, I buy the execution.

Oh, sorry, when I hear busses I am thinking of groups and not send/returns. That makes of course sense.

[Rob Elliott]

And I must say - having this 'control' (per cue) makes ALL the difference!!!


Rob

[Rob Elliott]

Freaking A Stephen -

the combo of Clinton and Todd AO for percussion is brilliant!!!!!!!!!!! Took my VSL timp and gave them so much power. Wow!


Many thanks.


Rob

[SvK]

Rob,

[artinro]

SvK,
Your tutorials and hints on this and other forums are always most appreciated. Thank you very much for posting this information and for your willingness to help answer questions.

Perhaps I could ask one question: do your mic distances on your tail busses mirror the corresponding ones in your ER busses? Or do you stick with one mic distance for each instance of tail and only alter the tail predelay?

Thanks so much again for your wonderful lessons.

Cheers,
-Art

[Ashermusic]

I was skeptical of how much difference SvK's approach would make but after fooling around with it a bit, I am impressed.

Kudos, Stephen.