----------------------------------- lulgje Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:02 am Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- We are living the good times. Anyone ready for this? o/~ :D ----------------------------------- noiseboyuk Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:14 am ----------------------------------- Hey. I wanna count the number of times the words "Apples" and "Oranges" appear in this thread! Oh why not, I'm gonna go for it. LASS pros - True divisi Ability to handle smaller ensemble sizes ART script Kontakt format Relatively small library size HS pros - Playable and recorded runs Huge Hollywood tone out of the box Multi mics Some tempo-synced articulations (meas trems) Can't say about legato yet... think both are probably very good. ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:10 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Or rather, LASS Lite vs HS Gold, that is a closer comparison I'd say. ----------------------------------- nikolas Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:14 am ----------------------------------- Let's try this again: HS: NOT RELEASED LASS: RELEASED! End of thread? ----------------------------------- noiseboyuk Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:17 am ----------------------------------- Let's try this again: HS: NOT RELEASED LASS: RELEASED! End of thread? Well... much as I draw the line at calling a look at a quicktime a "review", surely it's ok to compare featuers at least?! ----------------------------------- lulgje Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:21 am ----------------------------------- Let's try this again: HS: NOT RELEASED LASS: RELEASED! End of thread? Just a question of time :) ----------------------------------- nikolas Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:29 am ----------------------------------- Oh I don't mind the thread, just mentioned my opinion... Plus it might trick other people into buying - not buying stuff and this IS a bad idea in my books! That's all ----------------------------------- Rousseau Wed Jan 20, 2010 3:41 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- My view is simply this: VSL Orch Strings + VSL Solo Strings + LASS + VSL App strings + HS = =o This is the best of all possible words... ----------------------------------- Dan-Jay Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:29 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- "So far" LASS 1. Smoother legato and more realistic sounding 2. ART Script 3. Better sounding divisi 4. Able to play first chairs 5. Kontakt HS 1. Out of the box hollywood sound 2. Realistic playable runs 3. umm........... that's all. ----------------------------------- germancomponist Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:34 am ----------------------------------- Let's try this again: HS: NOT RELEASED LASS: RELEASED! End of thread? +1 ----------------------------------- theheresy Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:42 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- LASS: Finely crafted, refined German engineering, Mercedes Benz HS: Huge, powerful, bulky roaring big budget behemoth with speed at your fingertips right off the show room floor, american Corvette ----------------------------------- Studio E Wed Jan 20, 2010 6:59 am ----------------------------------- Let's try this again: HS: NOT RELEASED LASS: RELEASED! End of thread? Well... much as I draw the line at calling a look at a quicktime a "review", surely it's ok to compare featuers at least?! +1 ----------------------------------- JohnG Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:22 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- HS sounds absolutely gorgeous. What I like most about it is the exact opposite of its ability to sound "Hollywood" -- its lovely performance at mp and p dynamics. To my ear, the "big hollywood," a.k.a. "loud and obvious" moniker is overly simplistic. Sure, the last piece in the demo sounds big -- and terrifically so -- but it's the ability to be small and "pretty" (if one can use such a term) that makes this library exceptional to me. There are other excellent features glimpsed in the demo, including the many mic positions allowing a lot of choice of sound, good legato, adjustable measured tremelo (fabulous), and nice-sounding divisi. Whether or not it's too early to evaluate a library one could debate. But dismissing, in a few phrases, a 500 gig library from a top developer is, by definition, incomplete, and arguably over-hasty, careless, and even sophomoric. Peter Alexander, a professional writer and reviewer, gives a more nuanced evaluation, and he is very cautious to point out that it's early days yet: http://soniccontrol.tv/2010/01/18/hollywood-strings-a-first-consideration/ I am a big fan of LASS. Rousseau, however, is right -- the best of all worlds is to have the right tools for the job. This is another tool, and a dazzling one. ----------------------------------- ChrisAxia Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:36 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- HS sounds absolutely gorgeous. What I like most about it is the exact opposite of its ability to sound "Hollywood" -- its lovely performance at mp and p dynamics. To my ear, the "big hollywood," a.k.a. "loud and obvious" moniker is overly simplistic. Sure, the last piece in the demo sounds big -- and terrifically so -- but it's the ability to be small and "pretty" (if one can use such a term) that makes this library exceptional to me. There are other excellent features glimpsed in the demo, including the many mic positions allowing a lot of choice of sound, good legato, adjustable measured tremelo (fabulous), and nice-sounding divisi. Whether or not it's too early to evaluate a library one could debate. But dismissing, in a few phrases, a 500 gig library from a top developer is, by definition, incomplete, and arguably over-hasty, careless, and even sophomoric. Peter Alexander, a professional writer and reviewer, gives a more nuanced evaluation, and he is very cautious to point out that it's early days yet: http://soniccontrol.tv/2010/01/18/hollywood-strings-a-first-consideration/ I am a big fan of LASS. Rousseau, however, is right -- the best of all worlds is to have the right tools for the job. This is another tool, and a dazzling one. +1. Well said John. ~C ----------------------------------- Frederick Russ Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:23 am ----------------------------------- Let's try this again: HS: NOT RELEASED LASS: RELEASED! End of thread? I have to agree. I think the video is impressive overall but the library is still not released yet. If we're going to compare them, the library actually needs to be released and then we'll have all the real-life reviews we need. ----------------------------------- Rousseau Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:09 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- HS sounds absolutely gorgeous. What I like most about it is the exact opposite of its ability to sound "Hollywood" -- its lovely performance at mp and p dynamics. Peter Alexander, a professional writer and reviewer, gives a more nuanced evaluation, and he is very cautious to point out that it's early days yet: http://soniccontrol.tv/2010/01/18/hollywood-strings-a-first-consideration/ I am a big fan of LASS. Rousseau, however, is right -- the best of all worlds is to have the right tools for the job. This is another tool, and a dazzling one. John, what I find most alarming of all is how much we're agreeing these days... Scary >8o :mrgreen: ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:16 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- A couple more pros/cons: LASS True sordino recordings HS Additional articulations such as col legno (although I'd still like to see a full patch list) I don't think enough of the "divisi" has been heard yet to know if faking it this way really works. Doesn't the video just play half of each section? What about the other half alone and the two halves played together in divided parts? ----------------------------------- JohnG Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:17 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Conversation should be pleasant without scurrility, witty without affectation, free without indecency, learned without conceitedness, novel without falsehood. Or some rubbish like that. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:31 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- One other thing to think about... I generally much prefer using Kontakt over PLAY, but there's a 64 bit version of Logic out now and EW says they'll be 64 bit soon while NI won't give any indication how far off it is, and tries to downplay the significance of it. If PLAY does go 64 bit soon (hopefully before HS ships) and Kontakt takes months or years, that could be a pretty big potential advantage for HS. Obviously not a factor on the PC side since I believe both have been 64 bit for a while. On that note, time for all you mac Kontakt users to start bugging NI to get going on that 64 bit update. ----------------------------------- midphase Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:41 am ----------------------------------- What I find interesting is that Cinematic Strings is not being included in the comparison. IMHO, Cinematic Strings definitely has that big Hollywood sound that many are mentioning they like about HS....so what's wrong with including CS (which BTW is also out right now, and for half the price of HS)? ----------------------------------- germancomponist Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:50 am ----------------------------------- What I find interesting is that Cinematic Strings is not being included in the comparison. IMHO, Cinematic Strings definitely has that big Hollywood sound that many are mentioning they like about HS....so what's wrong with including CS (which BTW is also out right now, and for half the price of HS)? It is! Go to the bumble bee thread! o/~ ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Wed Jan 20, 2010 12:57 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- HS has more than people are saying though: I don't want to list comparisons as I'm not sure of all the LASS features. I just know that LASS Lite will be in par with HS Gold with a few differences. Since both will not feature divisi, or multiple mic positions. Not sure is LASS Lite will have ART though. What I find interesting is that Cinematic Strings is not being included in the comparison. IMHO, Cinematic Strings definitely has that big Hollywood sound that many are mentioning they like about HS....so what's wrong with including CS (which BTW is also out right now, and for half the price of HS)? Because there are no demos other than by Andrew that come close to that sound. I'm planning on achieving that and posting it here. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:17 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Sounds like LASS lite will have ART, it is supposed to have all articulations but only in the ensemble patches, no divisi or solo. ----------------------------------- synthetic Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:53 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- A couple more pros/cons: LASS True sordino recordings HS con sords are not recorded that way? Where did you see that? Are they modeled? ----------------------------------- Niah Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:55 pm ----------------------------------- What I find interesting is that Cinematic Strings is not being included in the comparison. IMHO, Cinematic Strings definitely has that big Hollywood sound that many are mentioning they like about HS....so what's wrong with including CS (which BTW is also out right now, and for half the price of HS)? Totally. It makes much more sense to compare CS and HS, and I don't think I have to go over this one more time. I believe that deep down people know this but they are simply torn between buying LASS or HS and can't make a decision about which one to buy. ----------------------------------- germancomponist Wed Jan 20, 2010 1:57 pm ----------------------------------- Buy all! ;-) ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Wed Jan 20, 2010 2:48 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- HS con sords are not recorded that way? Where did you see that? Are they modeled? They said somewhere (probably on their forum) that it is simulated with impulse responses. The product page on their website makes no mention of that, it should probably let people know, as well as say how the divisi is done instead of true divisi recordings. I believe that deep down people know this but they are simply torn between buying LASS or HS and can't make a decision about which one to buy. Pretty much. And with LASS on sale for $999 through monday, I'm sure many people will be deciding between now and then. ----------------------------------- lulgje Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:47 pm ----------------------------------- Oh I don't mind the thread, just mentioned my opinion... Plus it might trick other people into buying - not buying stuff and this IS a bad idea in my books! That's all That's exactly the point. I am about to buy one of these two libraries, and eventually get both.... ----------------------------------- lulgje Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:48 pm ----------------------------------- Oh I don't mind the thread, just mentioned my opinion... Plus it might trick other people into buying - not buying stuff and this IS a bad idea in my books! That's all That's exactly the point. I am about to buy one of these two libraries, and eventually get both.... ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Wed Jan 20, 2010 5:59 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- HS con sords are not recorded that way? Where did you see that? Are they modeled? They said somewhere (probably on their forum) that it is simulated with impulse responses. The product page on their website makes no mention of that, it should probably let people know, as well as say how the divisi is done instead of true divisi recordings. This needs to be absolutely verified so that it doesn't become a harmful rumor to EastWest. Can you point to a specific post or link? ----------------------------------- SvK Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:30 pm ----------------------------------- CINEMATIC SOUNDS GR8 TOO!! Cinematic Strings sound great...been messing with them for a week now and I am falling in love with them.. Key switching between the low-position vibrato and hi-position vibrato is awesome and the library really excels @ the pp / mp layers for that mysterioso sound.... Cinematic strings is perfect for chords that one is standing on while performing legatos with Apass .... It's the quality of the sustains in Cinematic...they are full of life SvK ----------------------------------- JohnG Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:43 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- The sordino sound is modeled. Thomas B said that the benefit is that you can, "take it on and off during a passage (it responds to automation), and it works on every patch in the library. It's instant, no doubling of the template, and it sounds great." For those totting up such things, con sordino is not included in the list of articulations on their website. ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:44 pm ----------------------------------- CINEMATIC SOUNDS GR8 TOO!! Cinematic Strings sound great...been messing with them for a week now and I am falling in love with them.. Key switching between the low-position vibrato and hi-position vibrato is awesome and the library really excels @ the pp / mp layers for that mysterioso sound.... Cinematic strings is perfect for chords that one is standing on while performing legatos with Apass .... It's the quality of the sustains in Cinematic...they are full of life SvK I love you for saying that. Now my real beliefs feel somewhat confirmed. And that's that CS probably is a very underrated library that i intend to rip out massive amounts of production value. There are also no demos other than Alex's that really show CS. ----------------------------------- autopilot Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:45 pm ----------------------------------- Easy Buy Lass now - it works. By HS later when you know exactly what it is and that it works. ----------------------------------- autopilot Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:46 pm ----------------------------------- Easy Buy Lass now - it works. By HS later when you know exactly what it is and that it works. ----------------------------------- autopilot Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:46 pm ----------------------------------- Buy Lass now - it works. By HS later when you know exactly what it is and that it works. ----------------------------------- SvK Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:51 pm ----------------------------------- removed ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:51 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- After what SvK said I'm doing some searching for CS examples (very rare) http://www.cinematicstrings.com/CS_The_City.mp3 I was thoroughly impressed with the overall sound an warmth. ----------------------------------- josejherring Wed Jan 20, 2010 7:57 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- One other thing to think about... I generally much prefer using Kontakt over PLAY, but there's a 64 bit version of Logic out now and EW says they'll be 64 bit soon while NI won't give any indication how far off it is, and tries to downplay the significance of it. If PLAY does go 64 bit soon (hopefully before HS ships) and Kontakt takes months or years, that could be a pretty big potential advantage for HS. Obviously not a factor on the PC side since I believe both have been 64 bit for a while. On that note, time for all you mac Kontakt users to start bugging NI to get going on that 64 bit update. Play is 64bit and so is Kontakt. Don't know about the player thingies as I don't use them but the sampler is. Jose ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:02 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I'll see if I can find where I read it was impulse responses (it's possible it's some other means of emulation, but I'm pretty sure they're not recordings). Nick is on this board, he should be able to clarify. They don't list sordino under articulations, but under gold it says: All articulations and bowings, except divisi, bow-change legato, and sordino. Play is 64bit and so is Kontakt. Neither is a 64 bit plugin on the mac. Kontakt is supposedly 64 bit standalone, PLAY is still 32. ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:47 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- The sordino sound is modeled. Thomas B said that the benefit is that you can, "take it on and off during a passage (it responds to automation), and it works on every patch in the library. It's instant, no doubling of the template, and it sounds great." For those totting up such things, con sordino is not included in the list of articulations on their website. It's in the video. And it's on the EW web site where it states that sordino not included with Gold. ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:55 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Yeah, and there still isn't a string lib I've heard that truely captures it. Usually they are way too bright. ----------------------------------- SvK Wed Jan 20, 2010 8:58 pm ----------------------------------- actually the VSL 14s Sords Originals sound great ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:12 pm ----------------------------------- actually the VSL 14s Sords Originals sound great I've always had to EQ them down. ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Wed Jan 20, 2010 9:52 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Sordino in HS is modeled. You can hear it in the video for a brief moment. Does it not sound like great sordinos? We recorded real sordinos in HS, but they were only for analysis and comparison to the regular recordings. The benefit here is we have sordino for all patches including the most advanced legato interval 11,000 sample patches. That's what I want sordino for. Not just a sustain patch. It actually sounds really cool on some of the short articulations too. I read some of the comments about dynamics, velocity switching etc.. and HS has no relationship to EWQLSO. HS has more round robins and velocities than any other string library. We also have up and down bow round robin sustains. A typical sustain patch has 5 dynamics of non vibrato up and down bow, 5 dynamics of vibrato up and down bow, and 3 dynamics of molto vibrato up and down bow. That's 26 unique sounds up and down all controllable via CC1 and CC11. Each section has approximately 20,000 short note samples (one mic position). The next tutorial I make will probably be longer than the LOTR trilogy. ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:34 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Sordino in HS is modeled. You can hear it in the video for a brief moment. Does it not sound like great sordinos? When you say you have muted strings, that means they were recorded with the mutes ON the strings. And you have modeled sordinos for all patches. You just need to come up with a short statement that explains what you did so everyone understands what they're buying. ----------------------------------- SvK Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:37 pm ----------------------------------- Nathan.... Sure but VIenna is UnEq'd so as long as you know what you are doing it's fine... ----------------------------------- SvK Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:39 pm ----------------------------------- Nick thanx for explanation...the modeling, is it done with an IR? Or simply an EQ? SvK ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Wed Jan 20, 2010 10:58 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Yes mutes on the strings. We recorded this but only use it for analysis. The Hollywood Strings Interface creates a mute on the string "con sordino" effect. How we do it is our little secret. I'll make sure you can really hear it in the next tutorial. ----------------------------------- Dan-Jay Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:27 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Impressive news, Nick. ----------------------------------- SvK Wed Jan 20, 2010 11:29 pm ----------------------------------- Thanx Nick... SvK ----------------------------------- dcoscina Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:03 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Sordino in HS is modeled. You can hear it in the video for a brief moment. Does it not sound like great sordinos? We recorded real sordinos in HS, but they were only for analysis and comparison to the regular recordings. The benefit here is we have sordino for all patches including the most advanced legato interval 11,000 sample patches. That's what I want sordino for. Not just a sustain patch. It actually sounds really cool on some of the short articulations too. I read some of the comments about dynamics, velocity switching etc.. and HS has no relationship to EWQLSO. HS has more round robins and velocities than any other string library. We also have up and down bow round robin sustains. A typical sustain patch has 5 dynamics of non vibrato up and down bow, 5 dynamics of vibrato up and down bow, and 3 dynamics of molto vibrato up and down bow. That's 26 unique sounds up and down all controllable via CC1 and CC11. Each section has approximately 20,000 short note samples (one mic position). The next tutorial I make will probably be longer than the LOTR trilogy. damn I'm hyped! Glad you're back too Nick. :) ----------------------------------- stevenson-again Thu Jan 21, 2010 1:16 am ----------------------------------- i'm not necessarily too bothered whether the sords are modelled or not so long as they good. at least, since they have been recorded they could be released in an update if people were not convinced, or they wanted to apply their own tricks to it. either way, it's not a deal maker or breaker is it? ----------------------------------- Simon Ravn Thu Jan 21, 2010 2:50 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- While I was first put off by the fact that the sordinos are "fake", Nick's arguments make sense to me. In all existing string libraries, sordinos are rather limited and you don't get all the tremolos, trills, short notes etc. Just sustains, which limits your writing when you want the sound of muted strings. While the sound might not be 100% "real", I think it is a good solution. Is this "modelling" applied as an IR realtime, or did you process all the samples, effectively doubling the size of the libraries to get sordinos?! :o (I assume the first). ----------------------------------- Christian Marcussen Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:16 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- While I was first put off by the fact that the sordinos are "fake", Nick's arguments make sense to me. In all existing string libraries, sordinos are rather limited and you don't get all the tremolos, trills, short notes etc. Just sustains, which limits your writing when you want the sound of muted strings. While the sound might not be 100% "real", I think it is a good solution. Is this "modelling" applied as an IR realtime, or did you process all the samples, effectively doubling the size of the libraries to get sordinos?! :o (I assume the first). Yeah, I agree. It makes good sense. ----------------------------------- Rob Elliott Thu Jan 21, 2010 8:32 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I agree on the sordinos - this was a GOOD decision. It's all about the END product and how many choices we have at the end of the day. If a gazoo sounds better than a flute for any one project - I'm not using the flute. Nice explanation Nick - makes me want a second copy. :wink: We still looking like Feb 15 for ship out? (good to have you back.) ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Thu Jan 21, 2010 9:05 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- The only thing is they aren't really sordino. I would've at least liked a real sordino legato, but oh well. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Thu Jan 21, 2010 12:21 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I have no objection to faking sordino as long as it sounds as good as the real thing. Based on how little we've heard of it so far, it seems premature to declare it a success - we just need to hear more. If there were recordings made of real sordino to create the processing, the ultimate demo would be to play the test recording back to back with the library playing the same thing with simulation so we can hear how close it is. I also think the product information should explain how it is being done so buyers are fully informed, same for divisi. Assuming that sordino can be done this way, that's great news in general since it means that it would be possible for any sample library to do the same thing (or even for users to potentially do on their own to string recordings or samples). ----------------------------------- TeamLeader Thu Jan 21, 2010 3:32 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Can Lass do the type of runs in the HS video at 2:56 minutes? Thanks folks. I really like the sonority of Lass, and am trying to make an educated decision. ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Thu Jan 21, 2010 11:47 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Can Lass do the type of runs in the HS video at 2:56 minutes? Thanks folks. I really like the sonority of Lass, and am trying to make an educated decision. The technical answer is that most any library can do those runs IF they have a detache program (like VSL's .7) or a legato feature. A typical method of creating a line like that, if you lack the Grade VI piano skills to play it in live, is to step time in the rhythm of the line, then adjust the pitches, and edit from there. I believe the question behind the question is how was that line performed. Was it live? Live and edited? Or was it step-timed and edited? And if it was edited, how long did it take to edit to achieve those results? Once you know that, then you set up an example that's apples to apples to some degree, understanding that that particular program is unique to Hollywood Strings. So any comparison with any library has to take that into account. ----------------------------------- mech289 Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:58 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- After what SvK said I'm doing some searching for CS examples (very rare) http://www.cinematicstrings.com/CS_The_City.mp3 I was thoroughly impressed with the overall sound an warmth. +1 on this, I really liked the tone. ----------------------------------- midphase Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:24 am ----------------------------------- I really hope that the CS guys can figure out how to tweak the legatos of their library to be more realistic because they did nail a really nice tone. ----------------------------------- Unison Fri Jan 22, 2010 4:10 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- A typical sustain patch has 5 dynamics of non vibrato up and down bow, 5 dynamics of vibrato up and down bow, and 3 dynamics of molto vibrato up and down bow. Hi Nick Thanks for elaborating! I've got a question regarding the dynamics layers. First of all I find it fantastic you went for this many layers. Simply great approach. Now, it would be interesting to hear about how these dynamics were recorded. If we go by score markings, starting with pp - p - mp - mf - f .. etc.. 5 is quickly reached.. So my question is.. what dynamic marks did you use for each layer? Is it like ppp - p - mf - f - fff ? Or in other words.. how are the weaker or stronger dynamics favored. I mean, even though 5 layers is a lot.. a live string section should be able to nuance their playing at least 3 times that number (my friend who plays violin in our country's top orchestra argues the number is infinite..) :-) best, Nicklas ----------------------------------- stevenson-again Fri Jan 22, 2010 7:36 am ----------------------------------- not to put words in nicks mouth - but if you think about it what makes sense is: 1. the softest dynamic possible (sensibly) 2. the loudest dynmaic possible (sensibly) 3. equidistance between the 2 extremes 4. equidistance between the middle dynamic and loudest 5. likewise between middle and softest. becaus the dynamics are mdhweel blended you are in effect getting 127 different dynamics and while that may not be perfect compared to a real ensemble it gives an excellent approximation. ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Fri Jan 22, 2010 12:36 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- It's basically pp p mf f fff, but we use crossfading so you can get all the in betweens. In fact we are making some less cpu/disk intensive patches now that are pp, mf, fff only. They sound quite good too. They just don't have quite the same magic. ----------------------------------- Unison Sat Jan 23, 2010 9:49 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Thanks for clarifying, Nick! It's going to be very interesting to hear the tender side of the library as well. And great of you to provide a wide choice for us. Looking much forward to the next tutorial ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Sat Jan 23, 2010 10:14 am ----------------------------------- I really hope that the CS guys can figure out how to tweak the legatos of their library to be more realistic because they did nail a really nice tone. He hasn't told me exact plans, but there's a 1.5 patch coming out. I'm currently messing with CS, and will be scoring a short with it. I'm liking the sound, and the legato takes a bit of tweaking (there's an envelop control for type of legato) Still learning what each feature is atm. ----------------------------------- noiseboyuk Sun Jan 24, 2010 1:27 pm ----------------------------------- Does anyone know of any further info on LASS 2? Was anything said at NAMM? With the latest HS delay, I wonder if the release of LASS 2 might end up actually being quite close to HS. If LASS 2 has runs, the Kontakt reliability and efficiency combined with Andrew's superb customer support may well win me over in that direction. For me at any rate, the LASS / HS tussle still has a lot of playing out to do! ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:07 pm ----------------------------------- Does anyone know of any further info on LASS 2? Was anything said at NAMM? With the latest HS delay, I wonder if the release of LASS 2 might end up actually being quite close to HS. If LASS 2 has runs, the Kontakt reliability and efficiency combined with Andrew's superb customer support may well win me over in that direction. For me at any rate, the LASS / HS tussle still has a lot of playing out to do! My understanding is that the priorities are: 1. LASS Lite 2. LASS First Chairs (solo instruments) 3. the Sordinos are recorded and editing needs to be finished 4. Record LASS 2 Nothing formally has been posted about LASS 2 regarding contents, etc.. only that it's planned. ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:26 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- From the Soundsonline web site, HS Diamond is moved to February 28 for shipping and March 28 for HS Gold. ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:40 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- From the Soundsonline web site, HS Diamond is moved to February 28 for shipping and March 28 for HS Gold. Also, Doug stated this in the SO forums: Veron, not until we're completely finished and have products ready to ship. We're nearing the end of this major project that includes nearly a million samples, all of which had to be edited and programmed. We can't afford more pressure, our team is already working at capacity (and most weekends). We are removing the scheduled release dates as well as we obviously cannot release anything until it's ready. Cheers, - DR ----------------------------------- theheresy Sun Jan 24, 2010 3:57 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- From the Soundsonline web site, HS Diamond is moved to February 28 for shipping and March 28 for HS Gold. Also, Doug stated this in the SO forums: Veron, not until we're completely finished and have products ready to ship. We're nearing the end of this major project that includes nearly a million samples, all of which had to be edited and programmed. We can't afford more pressure, our team is already working at capacity (and most weekends). We are removing the scheduled release dates as well as we obviously cannot release anything until it's ready. Cheers, - DR ah jesus you gotta be kidding me delayed again. well they just lost a customer I'm going with LASS. ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Sun Jan 24, 2010 4:09 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- From the Soundsonline web site, HS Diamond is moved to February 28 for shipping and March 28 for HS Gold. Also, Doug stated this in the SO forums: Veron, not until we're completely finished and have products ready to ship. We're nearing the end of this major project that includes nearly a million samples, all of which had to be edited and programmed. We can't afford more pressure, our team is already working at capacity (and most weekends). We are removing the scheduled release dates as well as we obviously cannot release anything until it's ready. Cheers, - DR ah jesus you gotta be kidding me delayed again. well they just lost a customer I'm going with LASS. Having co-produced the Modern Symphonic Orchestra for E-MU, I have some insight on this, and I have to say, it's an enormous amount of work to produce a library. HS has 1 million samples in it with five different mic positions all of which MUST be quality checked with each other so that each program in each mic position works EXACTLY the same way. That just takes an incredible amount of time. A delay means done right first time which means once installed on our systems, we start work right away. ----------------------------------- andreagiuseppe Sun Jan 24, 2010 9:44 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Hey Nick, Can you go into further detail as to how the divisi actually works? ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Sun Jan 24, 2010 10:59 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- In the divisi folder there are 10 folders: 1st Violins A 1st Violins B 2nd Violins A 2nd Violins B Celli A Celli B Violas A Violas B Basses A Basses B Each one of these folders contains ALL of the patches in the library that the section played. So there is no limitation to what the divisi patches can do, including all legatos, sordino etc. They are the same as the regular library. These patches are all pre-panned in the proper position. The divisi was recorded at the same time as the regular samples and was captured simply by placing a U67 or U47 in a place that captured mostly 1/2 of a section with and emphasis on the first chair (A) or second chair (B). The benefit to this is tuning is perfect and coherent. This is how Sean Murphy get's a more detailed sound. he just dials in a bit of these spot mics. Use all the A patches and get a smaller sound. Use all the B patches and get a different small sound. Use them together and split parts and harmonies amongst A and B for a true divisi performance. If you are looking for a quartet type of sound, you will not get it from HS. But if you are looking for a small string section sound like 18 players (6,5,4,3). That is easy. ----------------------------------- josejherring Sun Jan 24, 2010 11:32 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Interesting. Wasn't buying it as divisi before but this could work. I do know I like the sound of the spot mics a lot from what I've heard so far. Jose ----------------------------------- Ned Bouhalassa Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:21 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Nick and Doug, Take your time and release it only when it's ready! 8) ----------------------------------- Waywyn Mon Jan 25, 2010 3:15 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Nick and Doug, Take your time and release it only when it's ready! 8) +1 ... I mean what is better? Releasing something spot on to the minute but having unhappy customers later or have them waiting a bit but really make it shine?! ----------------------------------- choc0thrax Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:29 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Nick and Doug, Take your time and release it only when it's ready! 8) +1 ... I mean what is better? Releasing something spot on to the minute but having unhappy customers later or have them waiting a bit but really make it shine?! I think releasing it early would be best. Surely some parts wouldn't be finished but that's what updates are for. Of course, though, that would be bad for the developer but good for the user. ----------------------------------- stevenson-again Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:06 am ----------------------------------- actually i have sympathy for both positions. in the real world when you are about to start a project, you could hack just having half the library in place - the meat and bones half. you would make do with your existing libs until the other half was ready. at nicks end though - the library is so big he is releasing it on huge hard drives - so neither terribly practical or economic to release early unless he was sure that samples were in good shape and all he had to do was tidy up the programming, which he could released via download. but that would feel 'bitty' and messy...i know i would prefer to make sure everything was tip top before committing to getting it out there. ----------------------------------- andreagiuseppe Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:12 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Thanks for the explanation Nick. and i totally agree with Ned. ----------------------------------- SF_Guy Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:22 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Ned Bouhalassa @ Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:21 am wrote: Nick and Doug, Take your time and release it only when it's ready! Cool +1 ... I mean what is better? Releasing something spot on to the minute but having unhappy customers later or have them waiting a bit but really make it shine?! YES... PLEASE... take your time and get it right the first time! ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:19 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- ... I mean what is better? Releasing something spot on to the minute but having unhappy customers later or have them waiting a bit but really make it shine?! Don't forget the third possibility, that it is released late and it still is buggy. That happens all the time, and yet some people still assume that if a product is late that means it must be less buggy. When HS finally ships, whenever that is, we'll see if it has issues. And hopefully this will be a lesson to not announce libraries so far in advance, and to not give a release date (and especially start taking pre-orders) until you know you can meet it. But I'm not getting my hopes up. ----------------------------------- josejherring Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:42 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I'll add my voice to the "take your time" bunch. From what I've heard the library has tremendous potential but I'm also hearing that the library has a lot of editing still yet to be done. Personally I wouldn't care if it took another year. I don't buy the idea of releasing something half done because it's "usable". When I get this I'm already looking at building a new computer just to run this and other Play libraries. I'd hate to get it and realize that the library still needs tweaking. Especially since Play doesn't allow you to do any tweaking on your own. Take the time to get it right. Take all the time you need. We'll be here. Jose ----------------------------------- noiseboyuk Mon Jan 25, 2010 11:52 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Take all the time you need. I think that applies to us customers too... I've no doubt that HS has the potential to be an outstanding product, but I'll be letting the dust settle for a while... ----------------------------------- josejherring Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:02 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Take all the time you need. I think that applies to us customers too... I've no doubt that HS has the potential to be an outstanding product, but I'll be letting the dust settle for a while... Yes. I'm a big believer in waiting a year to let others iron out the kinks. That's why I'm surprised to see a thread comparing HS to LASS. No comparison. LASS is out. HS may be coming soon. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Mon Jan 25, 2010 12:12 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Not to mention that if you wait, giant discounts are inevitable. I find it pretty bizarre to put a product on sale while telling buyers it's not done yet. And not just some final tweaks, unfinished to the point where they are reluctant to even do demos. If a car company said they were releasing a new model in a month but couldn't show it off because it wasn't running yet, would anyone want to buy it? ----------------------------------- midphase Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:23 pm ----------------------------------- " The divisi was recorded at the same time as the regular samples and was captured simply by placing a U67 or U47 in a place that captured mostly 1/2 of a section with and emphasis on the first chair (A) or second chair (B)." hmmm...so what you're really saying is that you guys recorded different mic positions that emphasize one part of the section over another. Not sure I'd call that "divisi", especially since the only way to achieve true isolation between the two groups would be to completely forego any room or Decca Tree mics (assuming there was no bleed from group A or B in the close mics). I'm not sure that this would work in practice, I can appreciate that you're offering this as a workaround and additional option, but to call it "divisi" seems a tad misleading. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Mon Jan 25, 2010 2:31 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Use them together and split parts and harmonies amongst A and B for a true divisi performance. I'd like to hear some examples to see if this works as promised. I also agree that it's disappointing that doing divisi requires only using the spot mics and losing the five regular mic positions. ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:56 pm ----------------------------------- " The divisi was recorded at the same time as the regular samples and was captured simply by placing a U67 or U47 in a place that captured mostly 1/2 of a section with and emphasis on the first chair (A) or second chair (B)." hmmm...so what you're really saying is that you guys recorded different mic positions that emphasize one part of the section over another. Not sure I'd call that "divisi", especially since the only way to achieve true isolation between the two groups would be to completely forego any room or Decca Tree mics (assuming there was no bleed from group A or B in the close mics). I'm not sure that this would work in practice, I can appreciate that you're offering this as a workaround and additional option, but to call it "divisi" seems a tad misleading. Misleading? These spot mics pick up mostly 1/2 of the section. I can't give you a mathematical ratio but it sounds much smaller than the whole section and the pitch is locked with the other half of the section. Pros: it sounds better than recording separate sessions, the programs are more consistent in general, and it saves us tons of recording time and editing. If you think we are being lazy, just consider that we have close to a million samples already. If you eliminate all the mic postions, there are still over 150,000 samples. That's a ton more than the other nice sounding string collection. Cons: It is not precisely half a section, so there is a tiny bit of bleed from the other half of the section, which frankly you would never notice. Just because we found a clever way to cheat doesn't mean it isn't great. I agree that it would be nice to have all mic positions in divisi. That is the only real disadvantage. But these divisi samples are still very fat sounding samples because we used vintage Neumann U67 and U 47. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Mon Jan 25, 2010 8:07 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- No need to be so defensive, nobody said you were lazy. I just don't see why you don't make it clear how you did the divisi and sordinos on the product page so users can make up their own minds. I'm glad you think both give great results. Now you just need to make more demos of each so we can hear them and judge for ourselves. ----------------------------------- artsoundz Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:35 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Not to mention that if you wait, giant discounts are inevitable. I find it pretty bizarre to put a product on sale while telling buyers it's not done yet. And not just some final tweaks, unfinished to the point where they are reluctant to even do demos. If a car company said they were releasing a new model in a month but couldn't show it off because it wasn't running yet, would anyone want to buy it? uh...they're strings. samples. not cars. Nothing new here about delaying a sample library or advertising it's imminent release. ----------------------------------- Tmon Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:50 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I was on the fence about weather to get LASS or HS... decided on LASS (got it for the special NAMM pricing). So stoked I did! It will probably take a bit for me to fully get my head around it, but so far It sounds amazing, and it works in Kontakt (my main sampler)! But the main reason is because it is out now. I will probably pick up HS at a later date (because I own pretty much all of the East West stuff), but no regrets here! LASS rules! ----------------------------------- ajcmuso Mon Jan 25, 2010 9:59 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Nick and Doug, Take your time and release it only when it's ready! 8) +1 ... I mean what is better? Releasing something spot on to the minute but having unhappy customers later or have them waiting a bit but really make it shine?! +1 ...totally agree here. Take your time! I don't see Nick's reply as defensive at all. As for the divisi, I would have thought a bit of bleed from each section would give a more fuller, live vibe anyway. And so what if they've postponed demos/release dates?? It really doesn't mean the end of the world :mrgreen: We just go on writing music with the great tools technology has allowed to have in this day and age as composers! You're doing a great job EW. Really excited from what I've heard/seen so far :) ----------------------------------- midphase Mon Jan 25, 2010 10:34 pm ----------------------------------- "These spot mics pick up mostly 1/2 of the section. I can't give you a mathematical ratio but it sounds much smaller than the whole section and the pitch is locked with the other half of the section." Hello Nick, I never accused you guys or being lazy, I'm just not sure that the term "divisi" might be the most accurate word you guys could have come up with. To me, "divisi" means that you split each section in two or more groups and tracked the samples separately with both close and hall mics to allow the end user to create multi-note harmonies in each section without running the dreaded risk of effectively doubling and tripling the number of players. What you're describing is more akin to "focus" mics which can help minimize the build-up of players when playing multi-note harmonies. "But these divisi samples are still very fat sounding samples because we used vintage Neumann U67 and U 47." That's nice, but we're still talking about close mics and isn't the whole point of achieving that big "hollywood" sound to take advantage of the hall and decca tree mics? Once again, I'm not accusing you guys of not doing your homework, but when an end user reads: 16 1st Violins (9/7 divisi mode) 14 2nd Violins (8/6 divisi mode) 10 Violas (6/4 divisi mode) 10 Cellos (6/4 divisi mode) 7 Basses (4/3 divisi mode) The assumption is that all mic positions are available for the divisi but in truth it doesn't sound like this is the case. ----------------------------------- OneThrow Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:15 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I do think the slow drip of news about HS, how it works, what it is capable of, what it contains, does lead to some misunderstanding. But the more that comes out the more the picture clears. And anyway once there is a proper in depth review all of that will be cleared up. And Nic is clearing any points that come up. I'm sure a lot of thought has gone into how to do the divisi, and I would say the decisions on that were based on how to integrate it best into HS to keep its consistent sound. I'm not sure that it needs the other mics if you use it to make a chamber orchestra. If I am correct in assuming that the divisi includes all the articulations, then that is a good thing. ----------------------------------- MacQ Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:16 am ----------------------------------- Once again, I'm not accusing you guys of not doing your homework, but when an end user reads: 16 1st Violins (9/7 divisi mode) 14 2nd Violins (8/6 divisi mode) 10 Violas (6/4 divisi mode) 10 Cellos (6/4 divisi mode) 7 Basses (4/3 divisi mode) The assumption is that all mic positions are available for the divisi but in truth it doesn't sound like this is the case. Are you confused personally about the methods? Or are you just pointing out your disappointment? I think the HS team has put a LOT of thought into the "actual results" category of this product. I mean ... I tune vocals. I use guitar amp sims. Heck ... we all massage the hell out of our samples with EQ and reverb. Mix-and-match ... 7-buses of Altiverb, etc. I think that the "fake" sordinos and the "fake" divisi, and the "fake" slurred runs are exactly the kind of results-oriented features that I REALLY want. I can program my own ostinatos ... I don't need a mythical script to do it for me. What I can't do is make thin out-of-tune strings sound lush. I want results fast ... I want to take the short cuts. Why is "sounds great out of the box" such a bad thing? ~Stu ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:38 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- The reality is if you are looking for the big Hollywood sound, divisi won't make a big difference. I know you guys might not agree. What we have is divisi that will be useful for more intimate pieces of film music. ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:58 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- To Mike C. Multiple finger positions for all sections including open strings 3 unique styles of legato interval sampling, including never-before-sampled bow change legato, slurred legato, and portamento sliding legato, sampled at 3, 3 and 2 dynamics respectively, all with speed control. That's 8 passes of legato intervals, all sampled in long format so each note has time to breath. Basses only have slurred legato. 5 dynamics of up- and down-bowed sustains at non vibrato 5 dynamics of up- and down-bowed sustains at vibrato 3 dynamics of up- and down-bowed sustains at molto vibrato all at 4 finger positions, so one full octave is sampled on each string Extensive runs Playable runs Spiccato runs for violins Other articulations: Bart�k pizzicato Col legno Detach� up and down bows with finger positions and 4 dynamics Flautando for violins Harmonics for violins Marcato short 3 dynamics RRx4 Marcato Long 3 dynamics RRx4 Measured tremolo 4 dynamics On-the-string staccato 4 dynamics RRx8 Pizzicato 4 dynamics RRx4 Repetitions 3 dynamics Ricochet 3 dynamics RRx2 Spiccato 4 dynamics RRx9 Staccatissmo 4 dynamics RRx16 Staccato 4 dynamics RRx9 slurred staccato for violins 4 dynamics RRx9 Sul ponticello tremolo for violas Tremolo 4 dynamics Trills (major and minor) 3 dynamics All sections were sampled with wide extended ranges including almost 4 octaves for violins. Release trails for everything. Custom Python scripting. There are 5 mic positions and we also have divisi spot mics. 16 1st Violins (9/7 divisi mode) 14 2nd Violins (8/6 divisi mode) 10 Violas (6/4 divisi mode) 10 Cellos (6/4 divisi mode) 7 Basses (4/3 divisi mode) Sordino effect available for all patches. Convolution reverbs include new impulses from QL Spaces. These include soundstages and halls from Southern California and the famous HDIR cathedral impulse that Wizoo licensed years ago. I probably forgot something and I can't guarantee that the list is 100% correct. ----------------------------------- midphase Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:09 am ----------------------------------- "I can program my own ostinatos ... I don't need a mythical script to do it for me. What I can't do is make thin out-of-tune strings sound lush. " Ouch! Tough crowd around here....you'd think we were having a Mac vs. PC discussion! ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:10 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- The reality is if you are looking for the big Hollywood sound, divisi won't make a big difference. I know you guys might not agree. What we have is divisi that will be useful for more intimate pieces of film music. Honestly, I wish we weren't so "obsessed" with the Hollywood sound thing. You recorded a large string ensemble that can be used in any kind of music. Because you recorded HS in a studio presents a lot of options for use, including creating string arrangements for vocalists, which some of us do (though those of us who do might not all frequent VI). Your approach to achieving divisi is a really clever approach, and only needs a few examples, preferably benchmarked to some PD classics for comparision, to demonstrate your aural vision. I also wish you would define, "finger positions." Are you referring to the standard positions a violinist, for example, uses, such as first position, third position, fifth position, etc? See reference: http://www.truespec.com/professional-orchestration-strings-positions-booklet-p-1137.html ----------------------------------- midphase Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:17 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:23 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- The reality is if you are looking for the big Hollywood sound, divisi won't make a big difference. I know you guys might not agree. What we have is divisi that will be useful for more intimate pieces of film music. Honestly, I wish we weren't so "obsessed" with the Hollywood sound thing. You recorded a large string ensemble that can be used in any kind of music. Because you recorded HS in a studio presents a lot of options for use, including creating string arrangements for vocalists, which some of us do (though those of us who do might not all frequent VI). Your approach to achieving divisi is a really clever approach, and only needs a few examples, preferably benchmarked to some PD classics for comparision, to demonstrate your aural vision. I also wish you would define, "finger positions." Are you referring to the standard positions a violinist, for example, uses, such as first position, third position, fifth position, etc? See reference: http://www.truespec.com/professional-orchestration-strings-positions-booklet-p-1137.html Finger positions simply means that you have access to specific notes played in multiple places on the bridge. So you can play a low e on the g string of the violins, or you can play the same low e on the d string etc... In practice, if you simply want to write music, you can set HS to mostly use the notes played farther up the neck for a warmer more lush sound. Peter, People simply want to play out of the box string sounds that sound like their favorite soundtracks. That's why we made this thing. ----------------------------------- Dave Connor Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:28 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- So if you want divisi you only have the spot mics available? It seems that's the case. Wouldn't that mean that if the strings are sawing away non-divisi (with only Decca tree on for example) you are going to have a major change in the character of the sound if you want to divide the strings? Sorry if I misunderstood and am being an idiot, just trying to truly understand how it will work/sound with traditional string writing. ----------------------------------- ajcmuso Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:33 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- The reality is if you are looking for the big Hollywood sound, divisi won't make a big difference. I know you guys might not agree. What we have is divisi that will be useful for more intimate pieces of film music. Honestly, I wish we weren't so "obsessed" with the Hollywood sound thing. You recorded a large string ensemble that can be used in any kind of music. Because you recorded HS in a studio presents a lot of options for use, including creating string arrangements for vocalists, which some of us do (though those of us who do might not all frequent VI). Your approach to achieving divisi is a really clever approach, and only needs a few examples, preferably benchmarked to some PD classics for comparision, to demonstrate your aural vision. I also wish you would define, "finger positions." Are you referring to the standard positions a violinist, for example, uses, such as first position, third position, fifth position, etc? See reference: http://www.truespec.com/professional-orchestration-strings-positions-booklet-p-1137.html Finger positions simply means that you have access to specific notes played in multiple places on the bridge. So you can play a low e on the g string of the violins, or you can play the same low e on the d string etc... In practice, if you simply want to write music, you can set HS to mostly use the notes played farther up the neck for a warmer more lush sound. Peter, People simply want to play out of the box string sounds that sound like their favorite soundtracks. That's why we made this thing. Hence the name "Hollywood Strings" ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Tue Jan 26, 2010 1:49 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Peter, People simply want to play out of the box string sounds that sound like their favorite soundtracks. That's why we made this thing. I've been in plenty of sessions booked by Sandy DeCrescent so I know what a "Hollywood" sound is, regardless of what you call it. I had this same discussion with Andrew over the name L. A. Scoring Strings. He asked me what I thought it meant by that title. I said then, as I'd say now with HS, is that the reputation of the studio musicians in Los Angeles is their ability to read and play anything at sight. This deployment of skill takes place on a scoring stage (LASS) or in a studio (Hollywood Strings). Each name speaks to me not just a sound, but that either library, because of L.A.'s musician reputation, is capable of executing pretty much what any composer can throw at it. Which is a good thing for sales, right? ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:03 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I had this same discussion with Andrew over the name L. A. Scoring Strings. He asked me what I thought it meant by that title. I said then, as I'd say now with HS, is that the reputation of the studio musicians in Los Angeles is their ability to read and play anything at sight. This deployment of skill takes place on a scoring stage (LASS) or in a studio (Hollywood Strings). Each name speaks to me not just a sound, but that either library, because of L.A.'s musician reputation, is capable of executing pretty much what any composer can throw at it. Which is a good thing for sales, right? Studio 1 is a scoring stage really. Film and TV was scored there in the past but because of management, it became more of a rock studio for a while. It isn't accurate when you describe the 2 libraries that way. HS was recorded by Shawn Murphy in the same way he records at Sony or Fox etc.. in a very similar room, that technically is a superior acoustic space than the soundstages. I say technically because it is subject to taste. It is a little bit smaller with less bass build up than say Sony (I Like Sony). No one knows where LASS was recorded, but it certainly sounds like a smaller room than HS. And it sounds very nice. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:53 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- uh...they're strings. samples. not cars. Way to miss my point. It's a library with over a million samples, and it's supposed to go from not far enough along to even do demos to final release in a month (and relatively bug-free)? And have there really been other libraries that started taking orders before it was complete enough to demo everything? Are you confused personally about the methods? Or are you just pointing out your disappointment? Neither, I just think the product info should make it clear what it actually is. Look at LASS for example - the second violins are faked from recordings of the firsts instead of separate recordings or players...and that is made perfectly clear on their website. I have no objection to "cheats" as long as they sound every bit as good as the real thing, and the customer knows what they're getting. I don't think we've heard enough to really tell if they do the job, hopefully there will be pretty extensive demos of sordino and divisi. Nick, thanks for the list. Are all articulations for all sections except where noted? Are all articulations the full range of the instrument? Hence the name "Hollywood Strings" And yet, EW claiming it can get any string sound and replaces every other string library. Either it's really versatile, or it was created primarily with one specific sound in mind - seems like some of the sales pitch is a bit contradictory. ----------------------------------- re-peat Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:13 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Annoying little buggar, aren't you? I do wonder why you're all over these HS-related threads, as you obviously don't seem to like EW and you let no opportunity pass to question their philosophy and/or product. _ ----------------------------------- artsoundz Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:21 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- [quote="re-peat @ Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:13 am"]Annoying little buggar, aren't you? I do wonder why you're all over these HS-related threads, as you obviously don't seem to like EW and you let no opportunity pass to question their philosophy and/or product. _[/quote +1 I, for one, find it kind of fun to watch the momentum grow on a more than obvious stellar offering. And as a bonus, It's clear that if it isnt true divisi, LASS will still fit in nicely. let the good times roll, baby. Hi, Piet. ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:00 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I had this same discussion with Andrew over the name L. A. Scoring Strings. He asked me what I thought it meant by that title. I said then, as I'd say now with HS, is that the reputation of the studio musicians in Los Angeles is their ability to read and play anything at sight. This deployment of skill takes place on a scoring stage (LASS) or in a studio (Hollywood Strings). Each name speaks to me not just a sound, but that either library, because of L.A.'s musician reputation, is capable of executing pretty much what any composer can throw at it. Which is a good thing for sales, right? Studio 1 is a scoring stage really. Film and TV was scored there in the past but because of management, it became more of a rock studio for a while. It isn't accurate when you describe the 2 libraries that way. HS was recorded by Shawn Murphy in the same way he records at Sony or Fox etc.. in a very similar room, that technically is a superior acoustic space than the soundstages. I say technically because it is subject to taste. It is a little bit smaller with less bass build up than say Sony (I Like Sony). No one knows where LASS was recorded, but it certainly sounds like a smaller room than HS. And it sounds very nice. The literary point I'm making is that the adding the name of a city as part of library's name implies something about the library. My positive point is that in the case of either library recorded in Los Angeles, the broader implication of how the libraries are named speaks to the ability of the library to handle whatever a composer throws at it, which I see is a good thing! That is a similar indication to what one expects of a library named Vienna as opposed to one named the Fargo Symphonic Library! ----------------------------------- JohnG Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:07 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Hey! My mom is from Fargo. (Well, not really.) ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:20 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Hey! My mom is from Fargo. (Well, not really.) OK, then, the Myrle Beach Symphonic Library, or Myrtle Beach Strings! Can you feel the beach (and the humidity?) ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:45 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Peter, I agree with everything you said , but the part about the room vs. soundstage. Mike, No soup for you!! LOL :D Seriously, I appreciate the interest. ----------------------------------- re-peat Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:52 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- (...) on a more than obvious stellar offering. (...) Hi Kev, My thoughts exactly: HS is obviously a more than stellar offering, like you say. Which is why I find all this petty criticism, these endless quibblequestions and the childish nit-picking so immensely irritating. _ ----------------------------------- artsoundz Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:59 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- what is a nit, anyway? a bug? I do know a nit is not a gnat. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:02 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I apologize if my posts have come off as negative, I'm honestly just trying to get as much info as I can about the library and there's a good chance I'll own it eventually. Obviously the library sounds extremely good, nobody would argue that it doesn't. I'm just trying to get an idea of how versatile and flexible it is. Nick, I'm glad you guys are holding off on announcing a release date and I really hope users respect that and don't pester about it. I look forward to hearing more demos whenever they may be ready. ----------------------------------- artsoundz Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:19 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I'd be the first to admit it's just plain annoying I cant have it now. I've been that way my whole life : ) ----------------------------------- midphase Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:31 am ----------------------------------- "Annoying little buggar, aren't you? I do wonder why you're all over these HS-related threads, as you obviously don't seem to like EW and you let no opportunity pass to question their philosophy and/or product. " Now that's just rude Re-Peat. The whole point of a discussion, especially in a thread titled HS vs. LASS is to ask questions, point out potential inaccuracies, and hold the developer's feet to the fire to get past the promotional hype into the nitty gritty truth. What's the point of having a forum if the only thing people do is fall over themselves to idolize developers? LASS has been out for a while now, so we know plenty about the sound and what comes in the box, HS information is primarily derived from online promotional info and a Quicktime video. When someone goes on record to state that their library is "unimaginable" and made as an end-all solution for practically everything, I think it's fair for users to meet them with a high dose of skepticism. I think a healthy discussion to get the details now is way better than being angry down the line because what you bought wasn't quite what you thought you were buying! Hopefully as more demos come out, and some of the early purchasers write some reviews we'll have all the info to make an educated purchasing decision. Either way, I say keep the discussion up! ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:13 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Peter, I agree with everything you said , but the part about the room vs. soundstage. Mike, No soup for you!! LOL :D Seriously, I appreciate the interest. Thank you, Nick. For the record, while I appreciate that you don't agree, I said it in print almost seven months ago at http://www.filmmusicmag.com/?p=3344. Either as a customer or a reviewer, I have nothing from EW that describes Studio 1 as you did. Nearly seven months have gone by, and no from your organization PM'ed me, wrote me, or called me, suggesting a different way of describing where Hollywood Strings were recorded. I also wrote this sentence: So the studio in which HS was recorded already has a longterm demonstrated track record for achieving a quality recorded string sound. Having personally launched several hundred products over the years, and speaking from a sales position, I think your first video carried an unnecessary burden. I don't feel I'm being negative saying that Hollywood Strings has a lot of great features to it. You have the second library coming out that offers divisi, and you approached recording both divisi and "muted" strings from a very different perspective. But I stand firm in stating that if you want better or different comments, then better information has to be given. This isn't rocket science! You have modeled muted strings. OK, then say that upfront and not post-video release. Talk a little more about how you recorded divisi strings and then offer some before and after examples to demonstrate your point. A few basic system questions have been posed that have gone unanswered. Well, like it or not, those questions have to be answered, because customers need to know how to work HS in their systems. And as co-producer of this library, who better to come to? Is it subversive to ask: 1. With the drive shipping separately, what USB enclosures have you tested and recommend to users? (You don't need HS on the drive to do the test). 2. Is Hollywood Strings designed to be on the same system as our sequencing program, or is it best setup, at 500+GB, on a separate computer? 3. Can HS be spread across 2 or more hard drives within the same system? 4. At this point, since PLAY isn�t yet working with Vienna Ensemble Pro, if HS is on its own system, then what�s the recommended setup today? (Please don't tell us about the new virtual instrument board coming from EW. We need a present time answer.) 5. In your work so far, how much RAM are you finding you need? Every potential customer and every EW retailer needs to know the answers to these questions. There are two groups of buyers to invest in HS. One is the end user, and the other is the retailer who will invest cash dollars to promote it. Both need the same information, because either customer, it's an investment, both in the library and the people who created it. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:16 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I'd add... 6. Do you anticipate that the 64 bit mac version of PLAY will be out in time for the HS release? ----------------------------------- midphase Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:24 am ----------------------------------- Well stated Peter. ----------------------------------- Jack Weaver Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:43 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Peter & Mike, Those are great questions. Since HS will be a bit late (and I can understand that) it would be nice if we could be pre-armed with all the information we might need to get our systems ready for when it does show up,. It would be good if Nick could take a minute and give us the lowdown. Also it would be great to get Nick's insights on how to create sequencer templates to use most effectively all the articulations that'll come with the library. Yes, I do realize that we all do it differently but since Nick is pretty much the only one who has used HS to date it'd be good to take advantage of his knowledge. Thanks . ----------------------------------- Nathan Allen Pinard Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:20 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- I'm not sure why people are ripping on Mike C, he has valid concerns. Btw Mike, the "pre-order while it's in development" has always been a practice in the MMO world. Now it's starting to spread out to other software development. However, price breaks aren't given. Instead it's a collectors item or some other gift. And I really hope somebody someday makes the "Basic Instinct Sorindos" EDIT: Peter, good questions. ----------------------------------- Nick Phoenix Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:41 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Peter and All, Take a minute? I posted a summary of HS yesterday. I've been answering questions every day and more keep coming. I will try, but it's a bit too much for me as I am working on the library programming itself. Mostly scripts at this point and lower CPU programs. You'll just have to hang on a week or so or post these questions at soundsonline or email Doug. P.S. About the unimaginable power comment: Thomas was playing a single patch in real time which allowed him to play a full string section with crossfading dynamics and vibrato with his left hand and the melody he played with his right hand was playing all 3 types of interval legato. The result was something that sounded like a real string section playing live. It's breathtaking when you play it and was breathtaking to many that heard it and understood that the way they write will be changed with this library. ----------------------------------- SvK Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:47 pm ----------------------------------- This whole thread is getting retarded.... HS will be great I'm sure. Now stop pestering Nick and let them finish the dang library and let's bitch and/or swoon about a finished library at that point rather than speculating now.... jeez SvK ----------------------------------- nikolas Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:55 pm ----------------------------------- I said the same thing on the 20th of January but look! 4 pages long thread! Next time I'll keep my mouth shut, just in case the thread does NOT reach page 4! :D ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:07 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Peter and All, Take a minute? I posted a summary of HS yesterday. I've been answering questions every day and more keep coming. I will try, but it's a bit too much for me as I am working on the library programming itself. Mostly scripts at this point and lower CPU programs. You'll just have to hang on a week or so or post these questions at soundsonline or email Doug. P.S. About the unimaginable power comment: Thomas was playing a single patch in real time which allowed him to play a full string section with crossfading dynamics and vibrato with his left hand and the melody he played with his right hand was playing all 3 types of interval legato. The result was something that sounded like a real string section playing live. It's breathtaking when you play it and was breathtaking to many that heard it and understood that the way they write will be changed with this library. Nick you've been great about answering questions, and I know we all appreciate it! I know I do! But these questions, which I'm re-posting, are fundamental "system" questions the answers to which tell customers what they need system-wise to use HS. Since you're using HS on a separate PC, when you get a "mo" your input would be greatly appreciated, especially on 2-5. 1. With the drive shipping separately, what USB enclosures have you tested and recommend to users? (You don't need HS on the drive to do the test). 2. Is Hollywood Strings designed to be on the same system as our sequencing program, or is it best setup, at 500+GB, on a separate computer? 3. Can HS be spread across 2 or more hard drives within the same system? 4. At this point, since PLAY isn�t yet working with Vienna Ensemble Pro, if HS is on its own system, then what�s the recommended setup today? (Please don't tell us about the new virtual instrument board coming from EW. We need a present time answer.) 5. In your work so far, how much RAM are you finding you need? Thanks! ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:48 pm ----------------------------------- For anyone considering LASS, looks like the NAMM sale that was going to end yesterday has been extended. Not sure when it will end. ----------------------------------- Peter Alexander Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:51 pm ----------------------------------- For anyone considering LASS, looks like the NAMM sale that was going to end yesterday has been extended. Not sure when it will end. January 31. ----------------------------------- Mike Connelly Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:54 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- If only I could learn to read... ----------------------------------- Dave Connor Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:23 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Im not offended by the specific questions asked here. It's exactly what you're going to get with a major product announcement in any field: questions about the product. I also understand how busy the folks must be at EW and that they will answer everything and provide demos as they can. So far so good as far as the sound goes that's for sure. ----------------------------------- Ed Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:04 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- No one knows where LASS was recorded, but it certainly sounds like a smaller room than HS. And it sounds very nice. I'll bet Andrew knows! o=< ----------------------------------- tmhuud Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:45 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- 4. At this point, since PLAY isn�t yet working with Vienna Ensemble Pro, if HS is on its own system, then what�s the recommended setup today? (Please don't tell us about the new virtual instrument board coming from EW. We need a present time answer.) 5. In your work so far, how much RAM are you finding you need? First off - excellent questions Peter. These questions I would love to have answered so I can pass them onto my IT guy. ----------------------------------- Dan-Jay Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:46 am Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Some people claim that SO and the up coming HS can only get a big hollywood sound, i tend to disagree a little on that. 1. So can get a very quite and little sound when using the lowest dynamics, definatly not as obviouse as LASS, but you can if you tried. 2. I think HS will be able to do an even better job, hence that they're more dynamics than SO. However, sometimes i did have trouble trying to get a quiter sound with SO, simply because there weren't enough dynamics to do so, as in the lowest dynamics sounded like you wanted the section to play even quieter, but you couldn't because that was the lowest dynamic. I think since HS has up to 4 to 5 dynamic layers for each instrument, maybe the lowest dynamic would be quieter than the lowest dynamic in SO, so this means you wouldn't just get a hollywood sound, you could get a nice intimate sound aswell. ----------------------------------- Nick Batzdorf Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:16 am ----------------------------------- What are SO and US? ----------------------------------- Synesthesia Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:47 am ----------------------------------- Albums by Peter Gabriel. ----------------------------------- JKOL Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:48 am ----------------------------------- What are SO and US? SO = EWQL Symphonic Orchestra and US = HS (Typo?) :wink: ----------------------------------- Nick Batzdorf Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:30 am ----------------------------------- Wow. Now I don't feel bad for not knowing! ----------------------------------- Dave Connor Wed Jan 27, 2010 10:43 am ----------------------------------- Albums by Peter Gabriel. Brilliant. Had a good laugh on that. ----------------------------------- Dan-Jay Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:58 pm Re: Hollywood Strings vs LASS ----------------------------------- Sorry for the typos, guys. Yes... i ment HS, not US...... ahh boy.